FEB. 24, 1825.]

Delaware and Chesapeake Canal.

[Senate.

granted a corporation, but had subscribed money to- Mr. VAN DYKE thought, from what the gentleman wards its completion. Therefore, it seemed a duty on from Virginia had said, he might predict he was not ophis part to say something on the present occasion. He posed to the system of internal improvements and conwas not one of those who concurred with the gentleman structing canals: for by his offering the proposition he from Virginia, (Mr. TAZEWELL,) in his views. Mr. S. had done, he seemed to say he had no scruples as to apsaid, he had always been in favor of internal improve-propriating the public money for that purpose. ment, so far as it could be executed according to what he considered the true construction of the Constitution, and he thought the present measure came within the true construction of it. It was the beginning of the great chain of internal intercourse from Cape Fear to Boston, and this Canal being completed, would show that all the others were indispensably necessary, and would, at the proper time, be taken up.

The proposition of the gentleman was, he thought, worthy of great consideration; the Canal alluded to by him, was highly important to this great chain, and ought to be perfected; he should, therefore, when it was brought forward at a proper time, give it his most cordial support.

Considering him, therefore, as a friend to the present measure, Mr. V. D. said he would ask him to consider how much the amendment he had proposed would impede it, by introducing a proposition new in its charac ter, which had never been under the consideration of Congress; which had never been referred to any committee, which they had no official information to act upon, and which would, therefore, be the very means of defeating the object of the bill. Under this view, therefore, Mr. V. D. hoped he would withdraw his amendment.

In opposing the amendment, Mr. V. D. said he acted in conformity with the course that had been pursued in the House-placing each proposition for appropriating money on its own specific character and grounds. Instance the bill proposed to subscribe for a certain number of shares for the completion of a highly useful and necessary work; it was not proposed to give the money, but to subscribe for a portion of the stock, to enable the company to go on with their operations.

Mr. S. said, he understood that the sums subscribed by the States of Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Delaware, with that subscribed by individuals, would, with the appropriation now asked for from Congress, be sufficient to complete the work. As far as they had hitherto proceeded, the cost was within the estimate, and when this work was done, that alluded to by the gentleman from It was a subject, he said, that had been before ConVirginia would be done also, and the communicationgress on many occasions, and had been approved of by from Cape Fear to the Delaware would be complete. the Senate many years ago. It had been discussed, and The subscription had rapidly filled for forming the Ca- thoroughly discussed in the House of Representatives, nal to unite the Delaware and Raritan; which was a most and that House was willing, if the Senate would concur, important measure in reference to a time of war; and, to take so many shares. Mr. V. D. deprecated the idea in time of peace, would save insurance and lessen the of bringing forward another and a new proposition to coasting trade, which was the only objection he had to attach to it, proceeding on an untrodden ground, to emit. The East River, Long Island Sound, &c. made al- barrass the Legislature-a proposition for an object most an internal communication with Boston; and, if the which they may have heard of individually, but which Canal were made, cutting off the dangerous navigation had not been the subject of inquiry, and which they had round Cape Cod, there would be, in some sort, an inter- now neither time nor opportunity to investigate. nal navigation from Cape Fear to Boston, and he thought the time would come when Pensacola would be connected by a Canal.

The subject of subscribing stock to this canal, Mr. S. said, was brought forward about 20 years ago, and passed the Senate. The gentlemen from the West, anxious, and laudably anxious,for their own benefit, introduced an amendment, in itself important, asking an appropriation to assist in carrying a Canal round the falls of Ohio. The consequence was, one broke down the other. The liberality and honorable sentiments of the gentleman from Virginia, were well known, and he could not be suspected of making this motion with the intention of defeating the object of the bill; yet, if his amendment should prevail, the bill would be so clogged, that it could not pass during the present session. But, if this bill were now to pass, it would be a strong assurance that the Canal would be completed, and the gentleman from Virginia might be confident that his project would, in due time, be likewise completed-but this Canal would be of consequence to Virginia and North Carolina, for it would give them two new markets.

Mr. S. said, he would lay the constitutionality of the question aside. He was speaking now simply on its expediency, and, in that respect, he trusted there would be but one opinion; but, by making the addition proposed by the honorable gentleman from Virginia, the whole scheme would probably fail. If he wanted money to be appropriated for forming a canal through the Dismal Swamp, this was not the way to get it. If he would bring his plan forward next session, the passing this bill at this time, would ensure its success. The advantages this Canal would offer to Virginia and North Carolina, would be an internal communication with Philadelphia and New York, and he was confident would ensure the votes of the gentlemen from those states, should they not be deterred by the Constitutional question. Vor. L.-43.

It would, he thought, be very unreasonable to take up the time of the Senate, by entering into any detail of the importance of the work which the bill proposed to aid, and of encouraging such improvements. All these questions had been discussed over and over again; public sentiment was now matured, and was entirely settled on this point. This work must be considered as a national work, for it had never been looked upon as private stock; in former times the want of it had been most heavily felt.

Mr. V. D. said, he had a statement of the expenses incurred during the last war, of transporting cannon across the Isthmus of 14 miles, and it was most astonishing. One hundred pieces of cannon were transported from French Town to Newcastle, which cost $4551, and 64 pieces were carried to Brunswick at an expense of $2099. Some masts were carried across to Newcastle, the transportation of which cost $8636. This Canal was, therefore, a matter of great interest to the nation in the time of war, for the transportation of troops, provisions, and ammunition; and if Congress now lent their aid to assist them, in two or three years the work would be completed.

Mr. LOWRIE, of Pa. thought this amendment would as effectually defeat the object of the bill as a majority of noes on the original proposition. Viewing as he did with a favorable eye, the project advocated by the gentleman from Virginia, he could not agree with him in all the particulars of the parallel he had drawn between the two projects. For many years the subject of the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal has been before Congress, and the attention of the Senate had been particularly drawn to it-for the last 6 years they had reported in its favor-statements had been submitted, going into detail, and the bill had been discussed in,and had passed through, the House of Representatives; and now a ⚫ew project was offered; if it had been proposed at the early part of

the session, it would have followed the usual course, would have been submitted to a committee, and would have been consequently acted on; but if it were now urged on, crowded as they were by business, they must vote on trust; he therefore hoped the amendment would not prevail. If the project had all the merit its friends ascribed to it, it could not fail of succeeding at a future period.

[FEB. 24, 1825.

port his troops across the peninsula between the Chesapeake and the Delaware, the difficulties were found to be nearly insurmountable, and even the transportation of the baggage was matter of great difficulty, and caused considerable delay; he hoped that this amendment would not prevail, for in that case, the bill, so clogged, must be lost.

Mr. TAZEWELL replied to the objection, that sufficient time had not been afforded for the examination of the subject, by saying that the bill now under discussion had, it was true, been laying on the table for several weeks past, but it was nothing more than the printed bill of the House of Representatives, that had passed two readings in that body; and its consideration here was not more mature than that of the amendment he had just offered: the only reason, however, why his proposition was introduced as an amendment to this bill was, because there was not time for it to pass through the two Houses as an original and separate proposition; but that, when returned to the House as an amendment to the present bill, it would have sufficient time to pass.

Mr. BRANCH, of N. C. said the proposition of the gentleman from Virginia was of more importance to the section of country he had the honor to represent, than any that had ever been brought before Congress; it was connected with the destinies, not only of the east but the west part of the State. The Senate would recollect, that the Roanoke River had as much fertile land in its vicinity as any part of the Atlantic States. That river, he said, takes its rise in the western part of Virginia, waters the western parts of North Carolina and Virginia, and at this moment more produce is raised in the vicinity of this river, proportionably, than in any of the Atlantic States. Four years ago, a company was chartered by the Legislature of North Carolina, to improve the navigation of the Roanoke River—its funds had all been ex-favor of the amendment. Although the subject was treatpended, and the navigation was now nearly completed; the canal round the principal falls of the Roanoke was now excavated, and if they had any way of getting to the sea, they might carry on a most extensive and lucrative trade; the proposition now offered, was the only one by which they could get their produce to market; the funds of the Dismal Swamp Canal Company were exhausted, and the present assistance was asked to enable them to complete the Canal. Mr. B. said, his friend from Virgi Mr. B. said, he considered the plan of internal naviga nia (Mr. FAZEWELL) had clearly shown how intimately the tion from St. Mary's to Boston, as one entire work, and two projects were connected, and he believed if some- he would lend all the aid in his power to effect it from thing were not done, all the money expended in North one end to the other; yet he was indisposed to carry on Carolina in improving the Roanoke River would prove so a work of this description by piece meal. He looked much money thrown away. He thought they could not on the works proposed to connect the waters on the be charged with encumbering the present bill. If Con- front of the Atlantic Coast in the same point of view. gress, by a majority, had no constitutional difficulties; The able report of Mr. Gallatin, on that subject, showed if they could embark on the subject of internal improve- that there were but eighty or ninety miles of cutting ments, why should not the people of North Carolina re-required to connect the whole of the tide waters from ceive some portion of the benefit to be derived from that system?

Mr. VAN DYKE said it was from the offering of the amendment itself he had formed the idea that the gentleman from Virginia was favorable to the system of internal improvements; but, if he was mistaken, he had only to say, he perceived he was not to consider him as an advocate for the measure proposed by the bill. He asked the gentleman whether it could be possible, if this bill, thus clogged, were sent back to the House, it could finally pass that body during the present session? Considering the discussion it would necessarily elicit, and the minute attention it must receive, the impression on his mind was the object of the bill would inevitably be defeated. Mr. V. D. said he did not oppose the amendment because he was unwilling to afford any assistance towards the ac complishment of the object they advocated; it was not on the ground that the project was not to be completed, or was not to form one of the links in the great chain; but he inquired why this amendment had not been proposed to the committee, so that it might have been fully examined, and, when the bill was reported, there would have been no need of further amendment, and the information submitted in detail would have brought the House of Representatives to view it in the same light in which it was viewed by the Senate. But this amendment was proposed just at the close of the session; and it introduced new matter altogether, which they could not at this moment discuss. As to the importance of the Dismal Swamp Canal, he had no doubt that Gen. Washington did, looking to the wants and resources of the country, notice this as a most important project to which the attention of Virginia and North Carolina should be directed. It was a fact well known to every one, that during the Revolutionary War, when Washington had to trans

Mr. BENTON, of Missouri, said, he should vote in ed here as a new one, it was a proposition which was familiar to the public mind; it related to a way that had been travelled at least for seventeen years; there was no doubt that Washington had seriously considered the project, and indeed it had been before the public so frequently, and in so many forms, that every gen tleman's attention must have been drawn to it and his conclusions formed.

St. Mary's to Boston. He wished that the whole system should be adopted, and completed at once, and then confidence would be established throughout the whole Union. With respect to the ability to complete this inland navigation, when there were but ninety miles to cut through, it could not be doubted. When it was considered that sixty millions of dollars had been expen led for transportation during the late war, over roads so abominable as to make the cannon balls cost a dollar a pound, was it to be supposed that in time of peace, with increasing resources, they could not afford to pay for the construction of roads, which, in time to come, would prevent such an enormous waste of money? The whole system would not, in his opinion, cost more than half the sum that was expended for transportation during the late war.

He should vote in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Virginia, because he was willing it should share the same fate as the original bill, and because, although he was devoted to the completion of the entire system, he objected to the patch work way in which it presented itself.

Mr. B. was opposed, however, to the manner in which this money was to be applied. He did not approve of associations between this Government and the people of the United States. By the bill, this great Government became nothing less than stockholders in an act of incorporation in one of the States. If they began in this way, subscribing to different associations, they would doubtless have innumerable applications of this description; every one would commence by demonstrating in as clear a manner as Euclid himself could demonstrate, that it would be a great money making business for the United States; and by and by, petition would follow petition, praying a subscription of stock.

Mr. B. concluded by observing, that, on the report

of able Engineers, he should be willing to vote any sum of money for the completion of the work from St. Mary's to Boston, but he was against its being carried on in this piece-meal way.

Mr. NOBLE thought that a general system of internal improvement could not be executed at once, because the resources of the nation were insufficient; any sys tem of that kind must be gradually completed. By the passage of the bill for the continuation of the Cumberland Road, this principle was fully established. The gentleman from Missouri had voted for the Cumberland Road, which was a part of the great system. Mr. N. said he was favorable to the object of the proposed amendment, if it were unconnected with the present bill, but if the mover of it would not consent to with. draw it, he should move to amend it by asking for an appropriation to cut a canal round the fails of Ohio, in which the nine Western states were interested.

Mr SMITH, of Maryland, expressed his regret that the gentleman from Virginia had brought forward his amendment. It appeared to him that the friends of the Dismal Swamp Canal were willing that the canal in their part of the country should be completed, and had no great objection that the public money should be appropriated for that purpose, if it could be done without their vote, they being constitutionally opposed to it.But, Mr. S. said, if they would only allow the present bill to pass without attaching their proposition to it, they would be the more sure of their project succeeding when brought forward by itself at the next session.

This bill, Mr. S. repeated, was proposed twenty years ago, and in consequence of an amendment similar to the present, being proposed, the whole fell to the ground, and there was no doubt, if the present amend ment prevailed, some of the Western members would propose an additional amendment, which would break down the whole.

The plan proposed by the gentleman from Missouri (Mr. BENTON) was certainly a most extensive one. He would not be satisfied by taking things piece-meal, but must have every thing transacted on the largest scale. It was his (Mr. SMITH's) opinion, that if they were to attempt to act on a general system, they would get nothing at all done. The fortifications had been erected by piece-meal; a certain sum of money equal to the means of the country, had been annually appropriated; but if they had attempted to complete the whole system at once, it never would have been done; there were many parts of the report of the corps of Engineers, on which many of the members of Congress would have been unwilling to have acted. It surely was not sound argument to say they were to relinquish a great good because it could only be accomplished by piece-meal. If they had attempted to procure the construction of the Cumberland Road according to this grand system, not an inch of it would have been made. He would advise gentlemen to be content with what they could get, and not, by attempting to overload the carriage, to break down and lose the whole.

Mr. BRANCH, of N. C. said, although he had his scruples in regard to the constitutionality of the present measure, which would probably influence his vote, he was not disposed to defeat the bill on the table in any other than a direct way. He was opposed to the exercise of the power, because he thought that the constitution under which they acted, did not confer it. He should forbear pourtraying the consequences that had arisen from the immense patronage possessed by this Government, because many instances of it must be fresh in the recollection of every gentleman. The power already exercised was excessive, and should they add new strength to this power, already so formidable to the friends of liberty? He trusted not. Should they place immense sums of money at the disposal of the Government of the President? that President who had not

[Senate.

only controlled the deliberations of this Congress, but had named his successor? Was it not their duty to pause and seriously reflect on the awful consequences that were likely to result from granting this power? He trusted they would, and that every gentleman would feel it his duty to vote against this bill.

The question being taken on Mr. TAZEWELL'S proposition, it was negatived by the following vote: YEAS. Messrs. Barbour, Barton, Branch, Elliott, Hayne, Holmes of Miss. Jackson, Taylor, Tazewell, Williams --10.

NAYS.-Messrs. Barton, Bell, Bouligny, Brown, Chandler, Clayton, Dickerson, Edwards, Findlay, Holmes, of Me. Johnson, of Ken, Johnston, of Lou. Kelly, King, of Alab. King, of New York, Knight, Lanman, Lloyd, of Mass. Lowrie, M'Ilvaine, M'Lean, Macon, Noble, Parrott, Ruggles, Seymour, Smith, Talbot, Thomas, Van Buren, Van Dyke-31.

Mr. LLOYD, of Mass. said he wished to be informed at what time the assessments for the subscription of the Government were to be made payable, and when it was expected the work would be finished?

Mr. BROWN, the Chairman of the Committee, stated, that he supposed the payments would be made, at the time the dividends of the Bank were made, and that the work, it was expected, would be finished next year.

Mr. LLOYD observed, he was not opposed to the bill; he considered the object of it as an important, useful, and national one, and he hoped the enterprise would also be a successful one. He disagreed with the honorable gentleman from Missouri, in his objection to the partnership concern of the United States with the stockholders; on the contrary, it was to him its highest recommendation; in works of public beneficence, and this was one, the association between the Government and its citizens, could not be too intimate; the great benefit of these works was, connecting together distant settlements, and uniting them with each other, and the Government; he was therefore not opposed to the United States being a partner in the concern; all he wanted was, that the Government should be a partner on equal terms with its associates. It might be recollected that this work had been commenced many years since, and had once failed-it might fail again; although he trusted, it would not. The work might also not be accomplished at the time expected, which was rarely ever effected; and, by the wording of the bill, he thought the Government liable to be called on immediately, or as soon as dividends of bank stock were declared equal to the amount, for its whole subscription; while, if the work should be again left unfinished, the stockholders may have paid only a part of theirs. He was willing the Government should go on pari passu with the stockholders, but no faster.

From the payments being made payable from the lividends in the Government shares in the Bank of the United States, and from the printed monthly reports of that Institution, which have been laid on the table for the last year, he had been induced to examine them, and he was happy to find the Bank in so prosperous and creditable a situation; and he received pleasure from stating, that its funds were fully and advantageously employed. And, without then entering into a further detail, he would state, that the Bank, after first deducting the late January dividend of two and a half per cent. had remaining, a surplus undivided profit of $710,000, which alone was equal to two per cent. already earned for the next or succeeding dividends, to which could also be added the earnings of the ensuing six months. The Bank would not then probably give a less dividend in July, than three per cent. over and above which the Bank now possessed a reserved contingent fund of more than $3,700,000, to meet former deficiencies and casualties. If, then, as is perhaps the case, the Januszy dividend has not yet been passed over to the credit of the

Senate.]

cent. or

Delaware and Chesapeake Canal.

United States by the Bank, which was two and a half per $175,000 00 210,000 00

and there should be added to it a July dividend of three per cent. or

there would be unapplied of Government Bank dividends,

$385,000 00

thus, as he thought, by the wording of the present bill, giving the Canal Company the power at once to call for $175,000; and, in July, the entire balance of the $300,000, agreed to be taken by the United States, although the other stockholders may only at that time have partially paid their subscriptions. To obviate any risk of which, he said he would propose an amendment placing the Government and the stockholders on the same footing. Mr. L. moved the amendment accordingly.

Mr. VAN DYKE thought the amendment not requisite, as provision to that effect had been fully made by the charters granted to the Company, which, if referred to, would be found sufficiently guarded, on this head, and secured the object desired. He hoped, therefore, the amendment would not be urged.

The amendment was negatived.

The question recurring on the third reading of the

bill

[FEB. 24, 1825.

ped almost at nothing, which it deemed expedient to be done, and the constitution was construed to give power for any grand scheme. This change was brought about little by little; so much had never been attempted at one time as would agitate the people. Compare these things with those which had, in old times, been done under the constitution, and the change would be found to be most astonishing. The end of them all would be, in the vulgar tongue, taxation.

He had before expressed his belief that the public debt would never be paid off. They were following Great Britain, step by step, and the final result would be, they would cease to look to the debt itself, but think only of the interest. The history of the British Govern ment would prove that every war had increased the public debt, and added to the burthens of the people; and what was the result in America? At the time of the Revolution, the war produced eighty-four millions of funded debt; this was now increased to ninety millions, and instead of paying it, they were following the example of Great Britain, and turning it into 4 per cent. stock, which, like the 3 per cent. stock, no one would buy at

par.

Mr. M. said, he was against this government connect. ing itself with any company. He would have it get clear of the Bank of the United States. Let it appoint no Mr. MACON, of North Carolina, said he rose with a officer, and if it cannot dispose of its stock on good terms full heart, to take his last farewell of an old friend that | let it get rid of it at any rate. His idea of internal imhe had always admired and loved--he meant the consti-provement in this country was, to take from the people tution of the United States. On this occasion, he said he all unnecessary burthens. Let them have plenty of had experienced a difficulty in expressing his feelings. wholesome food and good clothing, and he doubted not Perhaps old people thought more of what took place they would continue to raise boys and girls who would when they were young than of the occurrences of after become men and women. These were the sorts of intimes, but in times of old, whenever any question touch- ternal improvements he desired to see. It was in vain ing the constitution was brought forward, it was discussed to talk of any other internal improvements strengthening day after day; that time was now passed. Gentlemen the country, when there was ninety millions of public say it is not necessary now to enter into the constitution- debt, and above a hundred of private debt owing. Much al question on this measure. The first time he had ever of the latter, indeed, was called accommodation paper, known them refuse to discuss the constitutional ques- but he knew it was false. tion, involved by a proposition, was, when the act was passed incorporating the present bank of thirty-five millions; from that time the constitution had been asleep.

These schemes, he thought, were monstrous strides, considering the character of the government. The gentleman from Maryland (Mr. SMITH,) was for laying the constitution aside on this bill, but that was nothing new in that gentleman, for he had constantly pursued that plan ever since he had known him.

Every scheme that was proposed was with a view of tying the people together. The late Bank of the United States was to give them a currency alike throughout all the States. It was said at the time, that this was im- Mr. M. was afraid they were going to follow the syspossible; the friends of the Bank insisted they could do it; tem recommended by a member of a certain foreign lebut, had they done it? Then they got into a system of gislature. When he was asked what measures he would manufacturing, and every body was to get rich by it. adopt to make the people peaceable and submissive, he The next thing was the system of a great navy and for- replied, "tax them heavily, and collect it rigidly; give tifications, which was to make them one people from the them enough to do, and they would never plague the Atlantic to the Rocky Mountains, from the Bay of Passa- government." This was the practice in Europe, and it maquoddy to Florida; but, had it done so? And now had succeeded very well. As to the meaning of the the people were to be tied together by roads and canals. Constitution, Mr. M. said, those who composed the ConHe thought the plan of the gentleman from Maryland vention that formed it, certainly must have known what (Mr. SMITH,) was as wise a one as ever was devised to they intended, and all the writers of the day referred to add power to the government. Do a little now, and a no power of this kind; but it seemed the people of the little then, and, by and by, they would render this go- present day understood what the framers of the Constivernment as powerful and unlimited as the British Go-tution intended better than they did themselves. He vernment was. We go on deciding on these things, said Mr. M. without looking at the constitution, and I suppose we will, in a few years, do as was done in England--we shall appoint a committee to hunt for precedents. My heart is full when I think of all this; and what is to become of us I cannot say.

This government was intended to be a limited one, its great objects were war and peace, and now we are endeavoring to prove that these measures are necessary, both as war and as peace measures.

could give no other names to his feelings than fears. It was true, he had no fears for his personal liberty, but he feared his descendants would be taxed up to the nose, so that if they got breath, it would be as much as they could do. The country now was not in a situation to pay direct taxes. In time of war, there was 15 per cent. ditference in the taxes of the different States; but the same thing would not be suffered now. He was certain the government could neither lay them nor collect them at this time. His fears might be groundless-they might be nothing but the suggestions of a worn-out old man, but they were sincere, and he was alarmed for the safety of this government.

Mr. M. said, he would beg leave to call the attention of the Senate to a celebrated report made in Virginia in 1799, for a true exposition of the constitutional powers of this government. If there was reason to be alarmed Mr. SMITH, in reply, adverted to the opinions that at the growing power of the General Government, how had been from time to time so confidently advanced by much more has taken place since? Congress now stop-many, that ruin must follow many of the projects which