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might be necessary with the holy see, it also appeared to stand re favourably with respect to the petitioners themselves. First, the stated themselves to be will* to acquiesce in the form of ath proposed to them in the 1 of 113. Secondly, as to the nomination of bishops, it was, in sunion, necessary to take away from the Pope the virtual nomitation of the Catholic bishops in kingdom; and if this plan were adopted, he was not inclined to forebode more danger to the rth establishment from hence, an from the elections without *he interference of government in ae church of Scotland. There as a third point not taken notice fa the Catholic petitions, which ared to him of importance regard to security; which was that of the regium exequatur, rigam placitum, which adof the right of all governrents to inspect every bull, re
tor other document coming - Romne, previous to publicathe and of authorising it (except 1 "ases relating merely to points evanse sence), in the same manner all the other states of EuCathole or Non-Catholic. be supposed, would not be d to by any rational Roman e as a measure of security, hhe, for one, looked foras an essential part of any
Henry Parnell returned * to Mr. Yorke for his very e, cordial, and conciliating *, and he hoped to be able afy him that the Catholics perfectly willing to do all 'à me tinge which the right hon. man required should be
done. In order to understand exactly the proposed plan of domestic nomination of all future bishops, it was necessary that the House should know the proceedings which now took place for filling a bishop's see when vacant. The bishops of the province in which he had been situated assembled together, and having consulted with the priest of the vacant diocese, named certain persons as fit to be chosen by the Pope for the new bishop. It had been nearly the constant practice of the Pope to choose the person whose name stood first on the list; but there was no law to compel him to do so. It was to exclude the possibility of any such proceeding, and to render all future appointments entirely those of the Catholic Irish priests and bishops, that it was now proposed that the Pope should issue a concordat by which he should bind himself to appoint no person to be a bishop in Ireland, except such as should be in the first place elected by the Irish clergy themselves. It was then proposed by the Catholic bishops to have the following provisions inserted in every bill. [These were provisos stipulating that no Roman Catholic clergyman shall be elected a bishop who is not a native of his Majesty's dominions, and who has not taken an elective oath guarding church and state from any future dangers.] As the Pope had communicated his readiness to give his consent to this plan of electing the bishops by a larger number of clergy than had hitherto been concerned in the nomination, and also to grant the necessary concordatum to bind himself to give [E 2] institution
institution to the person so elected, all possibility of foreign influence in the appointment would be completely excluded, and the selection of a proper person would be secured by the oath above mentioned.
Mr. Webber in a long speech gave a detailed view of all that had occurred respecting the Roman Catholics of Ireland, from which he drew the inference, that the measure now proposed is utterly hopeless as a plan of conciliation.
Mr. Bathurst, in speaking against the motion, said, that one of the most extraordinary assumptions in the arguments on this occasion was, that things were now brought to such a state, that some change must be effected in the laws respecting the Roman Catholics. This he denied in toto; and maintained, that unless the House was prepared to overturn the fundamental principles of the constitution, it was impossible to accede to the concession called for.
Lord Castlereagh said, that one of the difficulties which attended this discussion was, that it was scarcely possible to adduce one new argument or new topic which was not already exhausted on each side of the question. At the same time it was not the less necessary that Parliament should, with all convenient speed, deliver itself from the agitation of this painful subject. It was, however, to be recollected, that there was no probability that this question could be laid asleep, by persisting in a system of permanent exclusion After the noble lord had delivered his opinion with respect to the subjects of concession and se
curity, he declared that he found himself, as on former occasions, bound in duty to support his right honourable friend's motion. He was persuaded that the question could not be otherwise got rid of. He saw no danger in the measure; and he did not believe that the quantum of power which it would give the Catholics would enable them to do mischief, even if they were so disposed.
Mr. Peel, after some preliminary observations, said, that there are two systems possible to be adopted in Ireland, between which we must make our choice: the one is that on which we are act. ing at present, the other that which we are called upon to substitute in its place. By the first we give every toleration to the faith of the majority, but maintain that of the minority as the religion of the state. We exclude them from offices which are immediat ly connected with the government of the country, admitting them generally to all other ofhees and distinctions. This system it is proposed to replace by another, which shall equally profess to maintain the religion of the minority, as the established religion, but shall open to the Roman Catholics both Houses of Parliament, and every office in Ireland, exclusive of that lord lieutenant. It will be my purpose to prove that the law we are now acting upon is preferable to that which it is proposed to substitute in its room. Do not suppose (said Mr. P.) that I think that they cousti tute in the abstract a perfect sys. tem, or that I rejoice in the exclusions and disabilities which they induce. I regret that they
are necessary, but I firmly believe t..at you cannot alter them in any essential point for the better. MP then entered into an exaa nation of the existing laws, wh those meant to be proposed to supply their places, and in every stance he attempted to , that remaining just where are is the waly safe an solid ground of defence.
- Gruttan made a concluding with much force and anin He began with posily denying that there was any neral disposition in the Cathoto object to any security; for mat is for the good of the whole for the good of the Catholic. Aher pursuing this idea to a con⚫era le length, he said, some
Grable gentlemen speak of the estitution, the state, and reli1. as opposite to the motion. Let them state in what the dangery consist. Until they do so, ter arguments are of no avail. 14%ut the foundation of facts
prophesy consequences, for purose of perpetuating dis
ous on their fellow subThe Catholic claims have been agitating for nine-andvers. They have gone every kind of consideraand their interest doubles at porre discussion. In these disns no doubt individual irrihas occasionally appeared, son has occasionally been se n'o the minds of the Irish aton Is this state of things e allowed to exist any longer? we to continue that sort of Connexion in Ireland, 1 called a settlement, and hmust be defended by an pul by the people over
whom it is placed? This is a system which cannot last: depend upon it that it cannot. If you exclude the people from connexion with their own state, they will in the natural course of things attach themselves elsewhere. One part of the Irish population is morbid and excluded; another is unnaturally vivacious. Let a new order of things mark the times in which we live; and let an immediate and effectual termination be put to any clandestine intercourse between the Catholics and the see of Rome.
The right hon gentleman's peroration was to the following effect: "When I see Britain grown up into a mighty empire; when I behold her at the head of the nations of the earth; when I contemplate her power and majesty; I own that I am deeply astonished to find her descending from her elevation to mix in the disputes of schoolmen and the wrangling of theologians, who, while they seek for their own purposes to torture their countrymen, endanger the security of their common country."
The question being at length loudly called for, there appeared For the motion Against it.
On May 16, the Earl of Donoughmore rose in the House of Lords to move for a committee to consider the petitions of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects. He said, that he had caused to be placed upon their lordships table two petitions which he had the honour of presenting to the House during the last session, on
the same subject. One of these was that of the Roman Catholic nobility and other respectable persons of the laity; the other that of the prelates and clergy of the Roman Catholic church. Both of these parties were equally desirous of again offering their petitions to the view of their lordships; it is necessary, therefore (said the Earl) that the House should be perfectly aware that they have now before them the whole Catholic people of Ireland, represented by these, their humble petitioners.
His lordship proceeded to say, that thinking it his duty to abstain as much as possible from all generalities, he should prefer laying the case of the petitioners before the House in the shape of a refutation of those calumnies with which they have been so industriously loaded. In the course which he had chalked out for himself, the first objection which occurred might seem rather to suit the period when their lordships had gone into a committee. The Catholics might previously be asked, "What is your object? We will not go into a committee to grope our way in the dark, and seek out principles for you." But it appears from the public press that securities of a threefold nature have been devised; namely, domestic nomination; the sccurity called the veto; and the payment by government of the Catholic church. With respect to domestic nomination, the enemies of the Catholics say that this is no new security at all, for such has been the ancient mode of electing Catholic bishops almost without an exception. But though this is giving nothing new, looking to
the present practice, yet a great deal is given in confirming for ever the principle of domestic nomination. As to the veto, his lordship acknowledged he cannot offer that, since he certainly disapproves of it as a member of Parliament, being convinced that it would commit the Catholic prelacy and priesthood most effectually to the Irish provincial go vernment. He objected also to the payment of the Catholic church by the state, as a mode which would destroy the just reward which they receive for their religious labours. My measure, said his lordship, is a direct and absolute nomination, which is what I mean to propose if you shall be pleased to go into a committee.
The Earl then answered those arguments which he found scattered here and there in different publications relative to the subject. In general they seemed to require little attention; but one, which bears hard on the Pope for his anathemas against sending forth the Scriptures among Catholics without a commentary, received a retort which, as respecting the Pope, appears unanswerable. If it can be shown (says his lordship) that reverend divines of high rank in this country have held a similar principle, then this act cannot be alleged against the head of the Catholic church as an intolerant one. There are, my Lords, two members of that reverend bench who are most strongly opposed to the system of disseminating the Bible without a suitable comment. I wish to avoid any possible misrepresentation, and to pay every mark of respect to the right reverend pre
late opposite me, and have there fre copied from the pamphlet, Felsted by him on the subject ie Bible societies, his own words. The words made use of by the ret rev. prelate, (the Bishop of Landaff) are these. But it is red, if you still require that the Ee, however extensively you may wish to distribute it, should be accompanied by the liturgy, v: must certainly suspect that there is danger to the established earch from the distribution of the Bible alone. Here let me ask whether the Bible itself is not rapable of perversion? Whether the best of books may not be applied to the worst of purpraes. Have we not inspired thority for answering this quesin the affirmative?-But if we neglect to provide the poor of Le establishment with the book of Common Prayer as well as with the Bible, we certainly neglect means of preventing their tn from the established ch. The dissenters remain enters, because they use not eliturgy; and churchmen will beri me dissenters if they likewise reg ect to use it with the people. have the persons to whom Bibles are gratuitously distributed either The
with moving, "That this House do resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to consider the petitions of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects."
The speeches on each side were upon the whole so similar to those delivered in the House of Commons, that little addition by way of argument can be expected from. them. It may, however, be desirable to give a view of what the Earl of Liverpool, regarded as the prime-minister of this country, considered as the leading point.
I now come (said his lordship) to the main question: Are the Catholics entitled to enjoy privileges equal to those enjoyed by the members of the established religion? It has been well observed, that in point of abstract principle, no description of persons can complain of unequal privileges who voluntarily place themselves in a situation by which they forfeit their right to equal privileges. I ask, not only as it affects the Catholics, but as it affects every other body of dissenters from the establishment; do they, when they require equal privileges, offer equal conditions? If they do not, can it be contended that there is any injustice in distinguishing between them? I have always considered that the civil establishment was necessarily interwoven with the church establishment. This will be found a leading and unalienable principle in the earlier periods of our refore, from their instructors? history. It was the leading prinAnd can there be a better in- ciple at the period of the Revolustructor, in the opinion of church- tion, when the connexion between rươn, than the book of Common the state and the church was soPraver lemnly recognized. On that I The Earl concluded his speech rest: to that I will adhere. The
sure, or the inclination, or Lality, to weigh the arguments for religious opinions? Do they possess the knowledge or the
gent which are necessary to tet men in the choice of their Tom: Must they not learn it,