18 June, 1908.]

Mr. Richards-continued.

to the engineering trade down at Greenwich. That is something new to me, that is the first time I have ever heard of operatives preferring half-past six in the morning to six o'clock. That involves leaving off at six at night in preference to half-past five. That is news to me as an operative?—I asked the question, because I happened to be there. I have known it for years, and wondered about it; because I know in a general way, from actual knowledge, of other works in the neighbourhood that I am brought in contact with-I am only speaking of those I am in contact with-that they generally leave off at 5.30; but in this particular case, and it is an important factory, they work till six o'clock, and they prefer to start at half-past six in the morning. The head of the firm, in speaking of it, said that he thought it would be much better for them if they started at six o'clock and left off at 5.30, but as they preferred this, he adopted it.

2975. That is a thing that I have never heard of before, where the men would work later in the evening?—Yes, and start later in the morning that is the point; that is what they liked, but it may be rather unusual.

2976. You made a reference to the gentlemen who golf and swim in the morning. Probably you might not be aware that my experience is this. The operative who works in a factory has to bring forward such an amount of physical energy that he nurses it all until his day's work is over. He very rarely indulges before working hours, and his custom is that he likes a long evening, when he can say: "Well, I am done for the day"?-I did not express any opinion about operatives there. It was simply confined to clerks in offices and business men; it has nothing to do with operatives. I can quite understand that.

2977. Probably you would not be surprised to hear that in one of the largest trades, in fact, the largest industrial trade, its representative, a Member of this House, told me yesterday, when I was asking him how it would affect their industry, "On the whole, our people would like it." They start at six o'clock in the morning; and I do not see these difficulties that you suggest about getting up at 4.15 in the morning. We do not mind that usually, if we can get the daylight in the evening-if we can have the long evenings? -I do not wish to express any opinion as to what the wishes of the operatives are; my only point was that they ought to be consulted in the matter. So far as I have noticed, I may be wrong, we have heard the views of the employers of labour rather than of the labourers themselves. That is really all I wished to indicate, and I wished also to take the opportunity of indicating the conditions under which they work, which come within my cognisance the astronomical conditions as regards daylight. If they prefer to start work in twilight hours, in my view they are perfectly entitled to do so.

2978. Could I take it for granted that so tar as your own position is concerned, and your own work in regard to this and other countries, that yon are rather married to the Greenwich idea, and that Greenwich time should not under any

149

[Continued.

Mr. Richards-continued. circumstances be interfered with? Might I suggest that you are a little biassed towards Greenwich time?—I do not think it is at all a fair suggestion. Greenwich time. has been adopted by the whole world practically. What I am biassed in favour of is not breaking faith with the rest of the world.

2979. That is what I mean. Cannot the compact that you entered that Greenwich time was not likely to be altered- ? That the Greenwich meridian time was not likely to be altered?

2980. Would it not be much better, even if you were a greater person than the Astronomer Royal, would it not be more interesting to study the welfare of the people as a whole, rather than any compact we have entered into. Would the nation suffer if we endeavoured to alter Greenwich time?—It would suffer in its relations with the rest of the world. That is what I think; unless we can bring the rest of the world to our view. If we can do that-that is my point-that we ought to consult other nations who have made our standard time the basis for their reckoning.

2981. And, as other countries are in front of us one hour by their ordinary time, there is no reason why we should not come up to them? -Those remarks of mine had reference to the

proposals of the Bill for a 20 minutes' alteration four times. I have not expressed an opinion as to the other question.

Mr. Holt.

2982. You told us that this time zone system, based on Greenwich, had been adopted by all civilised countries, except France and Russia? -Yes.

2983. Does that apply to South America as well as North America ?—No, it does not. I did not say all, but I said generally throughout the world, with one or two exceptions. I put it in rather general terms, because these changes have been introduced gradually. South America has not adopted it, though the delegates from South America voted for it (with one exception) at the Washington Conference in 1884.

2984. Do you happen to know what the system in South America is ?-I am afraid I do not know; we have not got any information as to that. We have to gather this information as well as we can, and it is rather difficult to find out in some cases.

2985. You told us that you thought it would be very desirable to get France to fall in with the Greenwich meridian ?—Yes, I think so.

2986. I suppose that all their charts and similar documents are made up to the Paris meridian? -Yes.

2987. And if a navigator was accustomed to use a chart made on the basis of the Paris meridian and got hold of a chart made on the basis of the Greenwich meridian, it might be a great death trap?—Yes.

2988. It is a very important thing for navigation, at any rate ?-It was in view of that that the Conference was held in 1883, and this question was considered, and in order to avoid the confusion

and

18 June, 1908.]

Mr. Holt-continued. and danger to navigators of using charts with different meridians, the imaginary Island of Faroe was adopted for some time-at least, it was imaginary in the sense of meridian-and it was decided, in order to secure uniformity, to adopt the meridian of Greenwich as being that which was most widely adopted and spread-repandu was the expression used.

2989. Practically, a navigator in the habit of using charts based on the meridian of Greenwich could scarcely, with safety, use a chart based on any other meridian ?-He would have meridian?-He to make allowance.

2990. Which he could hardly be expected to make ?-No.

2991. Therefore, it would be a great advantage, and a considerable economy, to get all civilised nations to accept the same meridian, so that their charts and similar documents should be interchangeable ?—Yes.

2992. And you think that if we adopt the proposals of this Bill it is likely to seriously imperil the prospect of France accepting the Greenwich meridian ?-Yes, I do.

2993. If anything were done, would you prefer the alteration of one hour twice a year to an alteration of 20 minutes eight times a year?Certainly if anything is done.

2994. That would be the lesser evil of the two? -It would be a lesser evil.

2995. It would simply be the same thing as calling 11 o'clock in the morning, noon ?-Yes.

[Continued.

Mr. Holt--continued. and you got an order to do a thing at noon, would the effect of that order on your mind be the same as the effect of an order to do a thing at 12 o'clock after this Bill is passed ?-Perhaps I may say what I have to say about this expression, Greenwich mean time.

3003. It is a point of some importance ?-I wish to call particular attention to this-someone else has done so too. The expression in the Bill" Greenwich mean time as varied by this Act" is incorrect. Greenwich mean time is settled by the sun's passing across the meridian of Greenwich, and no Act of Parliament can stop the sun's apparent motion (or the earth's rotation) for 20 minutes, or, in the alternative, instantaneously shift the meridian of Greenwich by 220 miles at a time. That is exactly what it means.

3004. And that has not been done since the time of Joshua, I believe ?-No, and I believe in the latest manuscript found that is omitted. But I think in any case that expression would have to be changed, because Greenwich mean time is defined. in that way.

Mr. Pearce.

3005. Greenwich mean time is defined by the Act of 1880 ?-Yes.

Mr. Holt.

3006. There is one more point that I want to ask you. I think I am right in saying that Greenwich is a place very much nearer the East of England than it is to the West ?—Yes, that is

So.

3007. And as a matter of fact Greenwich mean time does not represent what I might call the mean time of England and Scotland-the United Kingdom ?--No.

3008. It represents something substantially earlier than the mean time of the United Kingdom as it is ?—Yes. You are using mean time here in a different sense, of course.

3009. I mean to say the average mean time of the whole Kingdom ?-Yes.

3010. Could you say, roughly speaking, how much it would be-10 minutes, 15 minutes ?-I should think something like that. The extreme West of England is 20 minutes west of Greenwich, and generally I should think the average would be about 10 minutes for Great Britain. Edinburgh and Liverpool, of course, are very nearly in the same longitude, the same meridian.

3011. Could you tell me, for instance, where does the meridian of Greenwich-if I may use the expression-pass out of England to the north? Do you happen to know off-hand? Is it before you get to Yorkshire ?-On the Wash, I should think; somewhere near there.

3012. So that practically the whole of the population of England is already living to the west of the meridian?--Yes, the bulk of the population.

3013. And is already, as a matter of fact, anticipating their true time by something on an average representing 10 minutes ?—Yes.

3014. And that, of course, would be accentuated under the Bill ?--Yes.

Mr. Pirie.

3015. I would like your advice in view of what you

18 June, 1908.]

Mr. Pirie-continued.

you say of the expression in the Bill being incorrect, Greenwich mean time as varied by this Act.' On the supposition that the Bill became an Act, how would you, with your knowledge as an astronomer, word this expression, which you say is incorrect in the case of Great Britain in line 22 of the Bill:"Greenwich mean time as used for the purpose of astronomers and navigation shall not be affected by this Act "-how would you define that?-I really have not considered exactly how to put it, but I think that if we were to say, "The standard time for Great Britain," or I should prefer to say, "the legal time for Great Britain, as varied from Greenwich mean time by this Act." That would express the thing-not a variation of Greenwich mean time.

3016. That would be a more correct expression of the term ?—Yes.

Mr. Pearce.

3017. That is a question for a lawyer ?-Yes, but sometimes a lawyer might use the expression "Greenwich mean time as varied by this Act" without being cognisant of the fact that Greenwich mean time cannot be varied without stopping the

sun.

Mr. Pirie.

3018. Then you spoke as to courtesy to foreign nations. Could you inform the Committee what nations in your opinion should be consulted, if we do settle to adopt any change of time ?-This time-reckoning adopted by foreign nations was adopted through an International Congress.

3019. At which a great number of nations assisted ?—I believe all the nations were represented who desired to be so. I think that the same procedure should be followed-that there should be an International Congress for discussing this question and deciding upon it.

3020. When did that last International Congress take place?--In 1883 I believe this movement was initiated.

3021. Through what departments is this correspondence or negotiation as regards time conducted between nationalities-through the respective Astronomers Royal ?--Through the Foreign Office, I suppose it would be. I ought to qualify my last answer. This movement was initiated at this International Geodetic Congress in 1883, and then an International Prime Meridian Congress was held in Washington in 1884, when the resolutions were passed by special delegates from the different Governments. There was a dual movement, first in the United States, where the confusion from 75 different reckonings for time led to great trouble, and this was started by the Railway Companies concerned, and then there was a movement by the International Geodetic Association, which was concerned primarily with the determination of longitudes and accurate positions and measurements of the earth; and they held almost simultaneously a conference at Rome in October, 1883; and then the recommendations of those two bodies were embodied in this International Congress at Washington.

3022. Then supposing that it was decided by Parliament to adopt this Bill, would you advocate any delay before it actually became law in order

Mr. Pirie--continued.

151

[Continued.

that an International Congress might be assembled? -Yes.

3023. A year's delay ?-Until foreign nations have been consulted properly.

3024. You think we would be in honour bound, by courtesy, to do so?--I think it would cause a great deal of bad feeling if we did not.

Colonel Philipps.

3025. On what grounds would you base your view that it would lead to bad feeling? There is bad feeling surely only if some harm is done to other countries by it?-There is a matter of sentiment that enters into this very considerably. The foreign nations have sacrificed their own national meridians for the sake of adopting that of Greenwich, and I think there would be a liability to sore feeling if we made a change without having taken the trouble to consult them.

3026. There is one other point on which I want of French charts and English charts. If I did not to ask you a question, and that is on the question misunderstand you, I think you said to Mr. Holt that any such change as is contemplated by the Bill would tend to prevent a friendly arrangement with France in the way of having a common meridian for our charts ?--It would shake their confidence in the security of our meridian.

3027. But there is nothing in this Bill to shake anybody's confidence, so far as I can see, in the meridian ?-It speaks of Greenwich mean time as varied by this Act."

66

3028. But it does not change the meridian, does it?-Yes, it must change the meridian necessarily ; it must either stop the sun or change the meridian. You have your choice of two awkward alternatives.

3029. It changes the meridian, you say?Either it stops the sun suddenly for 20 minutes or it changes the meridian suddenly for 220 miles.

Mr. Pearce.

3030. Neither of which can be done?--No, except by the use of words.

Colonel Philipps.

3031. But is the time that sailors use for their charts exactly the same time that we use every day as the Post Office time and railway time? Their chronometers are not set to that time, are they?—Yes, they are set to Greenwich mean time.

3032. Are they set to exactly the same time? -They work from Greenwich mean time by their chronometers.

3033. Their chronometers and Big Ben outside here are working at exactly the same time-is that so?--Yes, if they are correct. They allow for errors, of course. At the same time, sailors in their navigation use local time, but they determine their longitude, which is all-important, by reference to the chronometer that shows Greenwich time.

3034. But they are working all day to a clock that is set to Greenwich mean time ?-They have that always to work from.

3035. That is their basis?-The time they keep on board ship is local time.

3036. And

18 June, 1908.]

Colonel Philipps—continued. 3036. And all their operations they have to calculate every day back to their datum, and Greenwich mean time is their datum ?—Yes, from the Nautical Almanac.

3037. Do you suggest that this Bill will change the datum for their chronometers ?-No, because it does not apply to navigation.

3038. That was what I was trying to get out how any steps that we might think it desirable to take could possibly affect the international meridian. Nothing in this Bill, as I understand it, would affect sailors using the meridian at Greenwich, as they do now ?-No.

3039. Then I do not understand why you consider that it would affect any friendly arrangement?-My remarks had not reference to navigation.

3040. But that is what Mr. Holt was asking you about; he was leading up a great deal on the question of charts ?-Perhaps I may explain that the two questions are intimately mixed up. In the resolutions at the Conference at Rome, the question considered was the choice of an initial meridian, or common meridian for longitude and time, and that applies to charts and also to timereckoning; the two things were put together. It did not occur to the foreigners that you could have one meridian for longitude and another meridian for time, but the whole object was the unification of longitude and time, and this Bill would affect the object which they had in view of unifying time.

3041. On the Continent of America and in Canada they have got a different longitude; there they have got different times fixed arbitrarily, so that when you arrive at a certain line it is 11 o'clock, and when you are over that line it is 12 o'clock ?—Yes.

3042. Those times are all based on some common datum ?-They are all based on the Greenwich meridian.

3043. Do you see any practical difficulty whatever in the imaginary line across Canada. As you cross in the Canadian and Pacific Railway, you know that it is 11 o'clock as you run into a station, and as you leave the station at practically the same instant of time, it is 12 o'clock ?-Yes.

3044. Is there any practical difficulty in having 11 o'clock and 12 o'clock at the same moment? -Yes, considerable difficulty was found. Sir Sandford Fleming, who was the prime mover in this scheme, got his standard zones introducedhourly standards-as the first step towards universal time, of which he was a strong advocate, and I have had a correspondence with him as to the difficulties that there are in transition zones. To meet that, it was proposed to adopt a time six hours after Greenwich, throughout the American Continent, but that was rather too drastic a measure for the habits of the people, so that it has not been accepted. But there are difficulties, legal and otherwise, that arise in the transition from one zone to the other.

3045. At the present moment, as a practical working problem, they are working on that line?-Yes.

3046. That is the same principle, I understand, as is worked on in Europe-in Mid-European,

[Continued.

Colonel Philipps-continued. Eastern European, and Western European time? -Yes.

3047. You have actually in Europe, at the present time, an east and west imaginary line where it is 11 o'clock and noon at the same time?

In Europe it is hardly so, because the imaginary line is a real line, the boundary of a particular country, but in America it was defined by longitude, and it did not depend upon any boundaries of States or countries, but on an imaginary line, and there is where the difficulty came in.

3048. But what I want to bring out is this. Some members of the Committee evidently feel some difficulty in there being a time which is 11 o'clock, and yet is 12 o'clock-that it is 11 o'clock, and yet the sun is in the meridian-as if that was incompatible with practical work?— That difficulty was felt in America.

3049. But it is being got over all right?— I should say that it has been evaded rather than anything, because they have arranged the line of demarcation between the zones, so as not to fall upon any important town.

3050. In other words, they have adapted their meridian time to Greenwich time-they have shifted their clock to their datum to suit the exigencies of people in different parts of the country?—In that sense that is so-so as not to have in any populous place two 11 o'clocks and 12 o'clocks-not to have any ambiguity about time that is the important thing.

3051. But in two quite neighbouring places they have two actually different times, all taken from the common datum of Greenwich time ?I am not fully informed how they got over it, but that was the difficulty that was felt, and it was rather a serious matter, and it had to be met in some way so as to avoid it.

3052. What I wanted to bring out was that there are actually in one part of the globe, where they do work it practically, two actually different times in the same country at the same moment?-Yes.

3053. Yet here this Bill only proposes to change from the common day temporarily ?—Yes, it is in the temporary change that I see the great difficulty and the great trouble. A permanent change is not nearly so serious.

3054. You would not see any difficulty, then, supposing that we drew an imaginary line in England, and said that it should be 11 o'clock on one side, and 12 o'clock on the other ?-No. I would not say that. It must be understood that in the United States and Canada this was introduced in the first instance on railways and for telegraph purposes. The railways adopted the division and then the rest of the community fell into line. There were considerable legal difficulties in Canada, and Mr. Wicksteed, Law Clerk to the House of Commons, consulted me about them, how they were to be got over, and among them, the very difficulty that you mention, of neighbouring towns having times differing by an hour. But the primary point was that the railway companies used it, and then it was left for the legal gentlemen to settle what was to be the legal time used in the different places concerned, the boundaries of provinces being taken instead of imaginary lines of separation.

3055. Did

18 June, 1908.]

Chairman.

3055. Did I rightly understand you to say that the Horological Institute were opposed to this Bill? -No; the British Watch and Clockmakers' Guild had a meeting, and the discussion is given in the journal of the Horological Institute. The Horological Institute as such, I believe, has not taken any part in the matter.

3056. I can give you very shortly the evidence which was given by Mr. Wright; he is in favour of a permanent alteration of the clock by one hour?—Yes, I am aware of that; I really quoted from him. But that, of course, is quite a different thing from this Bill.

3057. Would you be in favour of adopting that course? No. I am not in favour of that. I prefer no alteration; but still, of the two, I should prefer it.

3058. From the cross-examination of Colonel Philipps, I think we may take it that all measurements of time are more or less arbitrary and conventional in their character ?—Yes.

3059. And that they are so arbitrary in order to suit the general convenience of the zone ?I should wish to make a distinction between the origin from which time is reckoned and the measurement of time.

3060. Or call it standard time ?—No. I mean that the origin from which time is reckoned is arbitrary, but the measurement of time is not arbitrary.

3061. But the standard time in any zone is arbitrarily fixed?-But it goes on continuously, when once it is arbitrarily fixed, without any arbitrary element coming into it.

3062. If you thought it would be a good thing for the people of this country to be given oppor

153

[Continued.

Chairman -continued. tunities of going to work earlier, and generally to take advantage of more daylight, you would not be opposed to carrying out the principle of this Bill-not the provisions, because you object to the modes; but if you thought it would be a good thing to give people opportunities of having more daylight, both for their work and recreation, you would not object?-If that were the only way of securing it, I should not object to altering the zero from which time is reckoned-that is to say, putting it one hour earlier or one hour later.

3063. But you are not at all convinced that people do want more daylight ?--Generally speaking, I am not, or that, if they do want it, they could not obtain it by other means.

3064. But I would point out one thing with regard to that-that there is no obligation in this Bill for anybody to do anything at all ?— There is no obligation under the Act of 1880 for anybody to adopt Greenwich time legally, but there is a presumption that unless the time is specially mentioned it is Greenwich time, and the result of that is that everybody is obliged to adopt Greenwich time. This Bill is just in the same terms identically, and this Bill is obligatory in the same sense.

3065. So that your view is that if any large industry desires starting work earlier or leaving off work earlier, it is perfectly well able to establish such a rule for itself without the help of legislation ?

Yes, that is my personal view. I am speaking there not as an expert in the matter at all. (The Witness withdrew.)

The Chairman.

Chairman-continued.

3067. And you were formerly Assistant Director of the Cavendish Laboratory, Cambridge ?—Yes.

3068. Will you favour the Committee with your opinion of this Bill?-What I have to say deals specifically with the part of the Bill that is concerned with the measurement of time, and not with the part of it that deals with industrial considerations.

3069. From the point of view of its being practicable, what aspect of the measurement of time do you propose to deal with now ?--I should wish to say that the proposal is undesirable for certain reasons which I will endeavour to give. I have put together what I may call eight points, and perhaps with your permission we might take them seriatim.

3070. If you please?-The first is that the proposed alteration of the denomination of the hours of standard time is a violation of fundamental scientific principles, because for purposes of measurement, time, like any other physical quantity, is conceived of as a continuous quantity, and all numerical values must be referred to the same epoch or datum point. The occasional variation of the epoch renders any system of time M

tific purposes. With such a system a single denomination of the time of occurrence of an event may have two meanings, which is not permissible in scientific work. The second point is that the use of Greenwich standard time for Great Britain is in fact part of the basis of the International Prime Meridian Conference, and as such is a matter of interest to the whole world. The letters a.m. and p.m. refer to mean noon at Greenwich. For any question as to its scientific importance we have to depend upon the corporate opinion of representative astronomers conversant with the daily requirements of various countries as regards the specification of a time standard. My third point is that the science of meteorology depends largely, if not exclusively, upon the comparison of measurements among which time is one of great importance. A discontinuous system of measurement is therefore inadmissible, and meteorological observers, together with astronomers, would, in case the proposal were carried out, have to use a dual time system, one for the ordinary affairs of life and the other for meteorological observations. Among meteorological observers are to be found persons belonging to all classes of the community. They are not, as in the case of astronomers, confined to a 22

special