18 June, 1908.]

[Continued.

Chairman-continued.

2842. I only mention that to show that legal devices have to be resorted to in order to obtain the greatest sum of convenience for the general public?-I am quite in agreement with that.

2843. The idea of the Bill is not altogether so unreasonable as it might, on the face of it, appear? -No. My view is rather that it does not obtain the greatest convenience that is really my argumert here that it will cause a great deal of inconvenience; and the question to my mind is, what convenience results from it. I am obliged to enter into the history of this somewhat, because it may not be present to honourable Members here, or to others.

2844. You said that this Bill would be likely to conduce to the benefit of clerks and publichouses?—I mentioned publicans as another case, because I think the hours of opening public-houses or of closing them would very materially affect, from what I have observed, the habits of the population; that if the public-houses were to close earlier, people would go to bed earlier. That is what I have observed in country places, where they close at 10 o'clock.

2845. But it would not conduce to the business prosperity of the publican, if he has to close earlier?I have not considered the business prosperity of the publican. I am only speaking of the hours of labour. I mentioned publicans merely because it seems to me that this Bill is specially in the interest of clerks and shopkeepers.

Mr. Pearce.

2846. Omitting publicans ?-Yes, and publicans. 2847. Now you omit them?-No; I say that it is competent for Parliament to legislate and fix the hours of labour.

2848. Your statement was clerks, shop-keepers, and publicans ?-It is within the competence of Parliament to regulate by legislation the hours of labour.

2849. But that is what you said about the classes for whom the Bill was drawn ?-I did not mean to say that, then.

2850. Will you kindly repeat it again?-It is within the competence of Parliament to regulate by legislation the hours of labour in the interests of any particular trade which may desire to make a better use of daylight, e.g., clerks in banks and commercial offices, shop-keepers and publicans. Whether they desire it or not it is competent for Parliament to regulate the hours of labour.

Chairman.

2851. You mean the workmen, the employees in the public-house?--Yes.

2852. Not the publican himself?-Yes, that is what I mean. I did not mean the actual publican.

2853. Will you please go on? You had come to the hourly standard zone ?-About the same time, in October, 1883, an International Conference of delegates at Rome recommended to their respective Governments the unification of longitudes and time-" in the interests of commerce and international communications," that was the reason given by them-by the adoption of Greenwich as the initial meridian, from which longitudes and

Chairman--continued.

time were to be reckoned. In accordance with these recommendations, standard times based on Greenwich mean time have been adopted by foreign nations, who trusted to the fixity of the Greenwich meridian for time reckoning. I gave a personal assurance that the Greenwich meridian for the reckoning of time could be trusted as being fixed, and I feel strongly that if this Bill passes I shall be rather ashamed of showing my face to my foreign friends who discussed the question with me. Any alteration of this basis for time throughout the world should be the subject of an international agreement. 2854. Do you see any likelihood of that being brought about ?-I do not think it is likely.

2855. You do not think the advantages are sufficiently obvious?-No, I think not. My view is that a change should not be introduced in this country without consulting foreign nations who have paid us the compliment of adapting their time system to ours. If we upset our own time system without consulting them, they must either alter their time system in accordance with ours, if it is based on ours, or else give up the connection between us and sacrifice the advantages aimed at.

2856. I put it to you whether you consider that any advantage is likely to accrue from the Bill sufficiently important to render likely the prospect of any arrangement being brought about internationally?--I do not think there is much prospect of it, for this reason: that the social habits of foreign nations differ considerably from ours. Take the case of Paris; there the commercial classes start their work very much earlier in the morning, and carry it on longer too. This Bill, I take it, aims at making an alteration in our social habits by the device of altering the time from which we reckon; and I do not anticipate, I do not think there is much probability, that foreign nations would adopt that view; they would say that they have their own habits and they do not want to alter their time, that their habits are adapted to the time reckoning of the country.

2857. Surely those habits were very largely affected, then, when foreign nations adopted Greenwich time ?--They were affected to a small extent-it is a fraction of an hour-but they have been affected no doubt; and that has led in some cases to a change in office hours and working hours, but the change has been always considerably less than ours, generally within half an hour, and it has been effected once for all. There has been a dislocation, but it is not a continual dislocation, from four dislocations in spring and four in autumn, which is a very different thing from making a change once for all.

2858. We will come to the method later, if you will kindly finish your general evidence?-The circumstance that the fundamental changes proposed in this Bill have been seriously considered by the House of Commons is in itself likely to have a prejudicial effect on foreign Governments, who had relied on the stability of British institutions. As I have mentioned, France has up to the present stood out. In 1883 the French Government were quite prepared to accept the Greenwich meridian, and General Perrier, the head of the Service Géographique, came prepared to alter the French maps to the Greenwich meridian and also

to

18 June, 1908.]

Chairman-continued.

to adopt Greenwich time; but there were difficulties arising from our antagonism to the metrical system; the French wished a little complimentary recognition of it, which our Government was not prepared to give; and the result was that they withdrew; whilst other nations adopted Greenwich time they stood aloof. Since then it has been proposed on two or three ocassions to adopt Greenwich time, and a Bill has been nearly carried through the Chamber of Deputies, I believe, but other circumstances probably have interfered. The feeling between the two countries was not then so cordial as it has since become, and there now seems to me to be considerable likelihood that the French will adopt Greenwich time as showing their good feeling towards this country. But if we proposed to alter Greenwich time in this way, or rather not to alter Greenwich time, but to alter our time of reckoning in this way, it seems to me unlikely that they would have anything to do

with it.

2859. Assuming that the principle of the Bill was good one, how would you suggest proceeding in order to give effect to it? What method would you be in favour of -a gradual alteration of the time as forecasted in the Bill, or one single change ?-I cannot say that I am in favour of any method of altering the time; it is absolutely opposed to my fundamental principle of time reckoning, to alter time backwards and forwards. An alteration once for all I can understand.

2860. A permanent alteration?—Yes.

2861. Have you anything to say as regards that? -It has been proposed to alter the time by one hour exactly, and I would say that there is less. objection to having an alteration of an hour, because the minutes and seconds are the same, and it is easily remembered; but the proposal to alter the time in summer by an hour is objectionable for the reason that I have stated; and the watch and clock makers generally, I believe, think that if this alteration were made once for all it would be less objectionable. Then the difficulty arises that in winter we should have to alter our times of work; we should be rising too early-in the dark of night--and therefore in many trades, as is the case now, they would have to start work an hour later in order to make up for that hour that is added in the summer.

2862. Not necessarily. You could have two time-tables, one for summer and one for winter, just as the railway companies have several timetables for different seasons of the year?—Yes; that is really what I am saying that you would need to have a different time-table in the winter : but then that comes to this. If you make a permanent alteration of an hour, putting the time forward an hour to suit the summer and then you need to have a different time-table in the winter. why should we not have a different time-table in summer and make no alteration in our time? Could not that be effected just as well by starting work an hour earlier in the summer?

2863. The point is that it is difficult to obtain universal acceptance of such a plan. If you could do that it would render this Bill otiose and useless; but the idea is that you cannot get any general M

Chairman-continued.

145

[Continued.

universal acquiescence in a change of this description unless the legislative machinery is resorted to?-In the first instance I would ask: Is this change universally desired, or is it not a desire that is confined to a very small section of the community; that is the point I put. Do the workmen desire it; do they wish to begin work earlier than six o'clock in the morning?

2864. You will be asked about that a little later by one of our colleagues, who is authorised to speak on their behalf.

Mr. Pearce.

2865. I notice that you say that Greenwich mean time is not arbitrary, by which I mean not arbitrary in any unpleasant sense; but do you say that Greenwich mean time is not artificial? -I do.

2866. How is that?-It is defined by the passage of the sun across the meridian after correction for the inequality of its motion.

2867. After correction for the inequality of the sun's motion, or rather of the earth's motion? -Yes, of the earth's motion.

2868. Does not that correction make Greenwich mean time an artificial thing ?-No, not at all. Greenwich mean time is the reckoning of the uniform rotation of the earth.

2869. Is that uniform ?-The rotation of the earth is absolutely uniform; it is the only means of reckoning that we have. The apparent motion of the sun is not uniform.

2870. I agree. The uniform diurnal revolution of the earth is not used for the measurement of time at all, is it ?—Yes, it is used at Greenwich and other observatories for sidereal time. 2871. At Greenwich ?-Yes.

2872. Anywhere else?-At every observatory. 2873. At every astronomical observatory, you mean?-For sidereal time.

2874. That is what you call sidereal time ?— Yes.

2875. For what purposes?-For astronomical purposes.

2876. But not for navigation purposes?— Yes.

2877. Oh ?—The passage of the sun is taken as apparent noon.

18 June, 1908.]

Mr. Pearce--continued. 2882. A mean is an artificial averaging of diverse time?—Yes.

2883. Time itself is measured by artifice ?No.

2884. What is time measured by ?-Time is measured by the rotation of the earth-that defines it for us. The whole thing can be measured by the passage of a star.

2885. Will you tell me that again. What do you say time is measured by ?-Time is measured by the rotation of the earth on its axis.

2886. The adoption of that measurement is a human arrangement? So is everything. The adoption of our life is a human arrangement, if you like to call it so.

2887. When you say that Greenwich mean time is not artificial, I now understand what you mean by that; I do not agree with you, that is all; but that does not matter. You approve of the hours zones ?—Yes.

2888. Yet they make an artificial time, differing by 7 degrees west or east of the hour line?--Yes.

2889. That is for the convenience of the community? Yes.

2890. Particularly of the railway community? -Yes, railway and telegraphs.

2891. That is a longitudinal arrangementthat is an arrangement with reference to longitude? Yes.

2892. If there were any great convenience in making a convention in relation to latitude, you would not object to that, would you? If there were any great convenience ?-There cannot be a convention in latitude for time-time would not be affected by latitude.

2893. I do not say that it would. But if there would be any great convenience by a convention as to latitude, you would not object to that, would you ?—I do not understand what it means. 2894. It does not matter if you do not understand it, I do not expect you to give an opinion on a thing you do not understand. By the bye, you have given us an opinion on the views of workmen ?-Excuse me, no; I say that their views should be ascertained.

2895. But you have given us an opinion on the views of shop-keepers ?-No.

2896. You have given us an opinion of what is desirable for shop assistants? No, I do not think I have said anything about what is desirable. My point is that they are in a position to combine if they wish. That is all. My illustration about early closing on one afternoon in the week was simply to show that they can combine to have some common arrangement among themselves.

2897. You have expressed the views of the watch and clock makers ?-Yes, I expressed that from the statement of the British Watch and Clockmakers' Guild.

2898. Oh! where ?-I get that from the Horological Journal, in a resolution passed by them. They held a meeting in connection with this

matter.

2899. You refer to the gentleman whom we have had here ?-Possibly.

2900. You have given us an opinion about

Mr. Pearce-continued.

[Continued.

the engineering hours of labour ?—I have merely mentioned what I know is the fact in one

case.

2901. And you deduce from that the whole thing ?-Not at all-it is merely an illustration of how the hours of labour may be varied by common consent-by trade consent in a particular factory.

2902. If a common rule should be agreed upon for the whole Kingdom, you would not object to that, would you ?-For any particular trade?

2903. If a common rule should be agreed upon for the whole Kingdom, you would not object to that for the hours of labour?-If you mean that everybody should begin work at the same. time throughout the Kingdom, I should object.

2904. You would not conform to it ?—I should not be prepared to conform to it. In my own office I have fixed office hours to suit our own conditions, and in other offices they fix other hours.

2905. And you are willing that they should? -Perfectly.

2906. So that, if we all agree to alter our clocks, you are willing that we should ?-That is another matter that is not fixing the hours of labour.

2907. But I am asking you, if we all agree to alter our clocks, are you willing that we should? -The question is whether we are all willing.

2908. I am assuming that ?-Well, I am not willing. That settles it, I think. You cannot say we are all willing; and I know a good many men who are not willing.

2909. You mentioned two Astronomer Royals of Ireland, and you taxed them with not bringing this about in their own country ?—No, I did not tax them with it; I only say that their countrymen were not willing to rise earlier.

2910. You say that they have not brought about this change?-I know that they have tried to do so.

2911. Have they tried ?-Yes, Dr. Rambaut has tried, and he is grieved that he has not suc

ceeded. '

2912. That was an endeavour to bring Ireland within Greenwich mean time?—Yes.

2913. Longitudinally ?-Yes, for the sake of uniformity.

2914. And they would not agree to that ?-No; at any rate, it has not been carried out.

2915. You know as regards that Act of Parliament to which you referred, of 1880, that Greenwich mean time does not apply to Ireland-Irish mean time is Dublin mean time ?--Yes.

2916. And Dublin mean time is 25 minutes West of Greenwich ?-Yes, 25 minutes, 21 seconds. 2917. And that applies all over Ireland, however far west Ireland goes ?-Yes.

2918. And that is an arbitrary arrangement? -Yes.

2919. Just as Greenwich time is arbitrary?— The adoption of Greenwich time throughout Great Britain is an arbitrary arrangement, but at Greenwich it is not arbitrary.

2920. I am suggesting to you that all you have said with regard to any other trades, professions and occupations than your own, is not more than opinion?-Quite so. My view simply is

that

18 June, 1908.]

Mr. Pearce-continued. that other trades ought to be consulted; I do not profess to speak for them.

2921. Do you suggest that the Committee have not consulted other trades ?-The question is what are the terms of reference.

2922. No; I was asking you do you suggest that the Committee have not consulted other trades?—I suggest that the case has not been clearly put before them that they would have to rise before sunrise, and that they would have to go to bed in broad daylight-that what they gain at one end of the day they lose at the other.

2923. I think you expressed the opinion that working hours generally are from six o'clock ?No, I was speaking of those trades in which the hours are from six o'clock; I do not say that that is so generally.

2924. Do you know what trades begin to work at six o'clock in the morning ?-The engineering trade, in my neighbourhood, I know.

2925. Would you be surprised to know that they do not?-Yarrow's, for instance, what time do they begin?

2926. Do you know ?—I know that they begin at six.

2927. Where ?-At Poplar.

2928. Is that the only case from which you judge the hour at which all people begin work?I did not say that all people begin work at six. 2929. But you spoke of the engineers, and you said they all began work at six ?-No, I have carefully avoided saying anything of the kind. I say in my neighbourhood, I know of some

cases.

2930. What I am aiming at—not unkindly at all-is this. You, as an astronomer, have expressed an opinion upon the hours of labour in all other trades ?-Excuse me. I have not expressed any such opinion. I have merely pointed out that if they begin work at six o'clock in the morning, in any trades where they do so, they would have to start at certain times of the year, under this new reckoning, before sunrise.

2931. You think so ?-I certainly say so if this Bill is adopted. As an astronomer I am able to say that.

2932. Let me have the benefit of your opinion about this. Assuming that the change is made of only an hour, and that the change only extends from the 1st of May to the 1st of September, the four summer months, workmen then beginning an hour earlier than they now do would be beginning in daylight? They would be beginning work in daylight for part of the time

2933. The whole of the time from May to September ?-To the end of September ?

2934. No, to the beginning of September. From the 1st of May to the 1st of September. If a change of one hour were made in those months would anybody begin work before sunrise ?-Yes, they would begin work before sunrise in the latter part of August.

2935. Do you say so ?-Yes. If a man began work at 6 o'clock-you understand I do not define the hours of work, but I say that if he began at 6 o'clock it would be before sunrise.

2936. When is sunrise at the end of August— the 31st August?—At 5.12, which would be 6.12; M

Mr. Pearce-continued.

147

[Continued.

so that he would begin work at 12 minutes before sunrise.

2937. On the last day of August ?-Yes, and for some days before.

2938. For how long before ?-A few days before; but that is not the proposal before me.

2939. But it is what I am asking you abouta proposal to make a change of one hour during the summer months. Taking the 23rd of August, when the sun rises by Greenwich mean time at 5 o'clock, and under the new operation would rise at 6 o'clock, will you agree with me that it is daylight long before then?-It is twilight-it is not full daylight. There is not sufficient daylight to work in factories without artificial light. I can mention that because it is within my own knowledge. On a perfectly clear, cloudless morning we cannot get the sun to register on our Sun Register within half an hour of sunrise. The register fails from the absorption of the light by the atmosphere —there is a great falling off in the light in that way.

2940. There is available light which you call twilight before sunrise ?-Yes, it is not dark, of

course.

2941. You have some objection, I think, to shortening the hours from 60 minutes ?—Yes. 2942. When was the 60 minutes to the hour settled ?—I really cannot say.

2943. Do you not know ?-It is ancient history. 2944. Very ancient history, is it not?—Yes. 2945. How long ?-It acted from the time of the Greek astronomers-that is not a thing I carry about with me, that is a question of history. As a question of history I do not know what the Chinese adopted.

2946. Never mind what the Chinese adopted just now; but did the Greeks use hours of the same length all day all the year round ?--I am not prepared to say that.

2947. Will you take it from me that they did not? They worked from sunrise to sunset, and the Romans did.

2948. And the Greeks before the Romans ?Probably.

2949. And the Chaldeans before the Greeks ?Very possibly.

Mr. Holt.

2950. If I may interpose, I think all these ancient astronomers suffered from very serious delusions as to the state of the heavens ?-Yes, the whole time-reckoning was very hazy then.

Mr. Pearce.

2951. Mr. Holt is very able and his turn will come. I want to get at the sacredness of the hour?-I am not concerned with the sacredness of the hour, but I am concerned with the sacredness of the uniform reckoning of time-whether we reckon it by hours or by tenths of the day or by any other fraction.

2952. By which you mean the length of time of the revolution of the earth on its axis ?-Yes, that is it really, that is not an ambiguous term.

2953. You start your day at noon, do you not? -For certain astronomical purposes time is started

at noon.

2954. And you reckon your 24 hours right round the clock ?-That is only for certain purposes. 21* 2955. Is

18 June, 1908.]

Mr. Pearce-continued. 2955. Is that so ?-For instance, for meteorological observations we reckon by civil reckoning, and also for our magnetical observations.

After a short adjournment.

Mr. Pearce.

you

2956. I do not want to trouble much further. Will you explain to us what day is in use at Greenwich Observatory? There are several days in use there, as I understand. There is the sidereal day, and the solar day ?—Yes.

2957. And Greenwich mean time ?-The solar day and the Greenwich mean solar day.

2958. And they, of course, differ ?—Yes.

2959. When you are dealing with clocks and watches all over the country, what is it that you transmit to them ?-Greenwich mean solar time.

2960. That has become an important matter, has it not, of late years ?-Yes.

2961. Would you like to say anything about it ?—I should like to say that the accuracy of timekeeping throughout the kingdom has been secured by the distribution (through the Post Office Telegraphs) of time signals from Greenwich exactly at the hour-to post offices, railway stations, and private subscribers. This system, which it has taken years to develop, would be dislocated by the dual reckoning of time, Greenwich mean time for time-balls and purposes of navigation generally, and variable time for the general public. The Greenwich time signals are sent out automatically at the exact hour, being regulated by astronomical observations, and they would thus be received 20 minutes or 40 minutes past the variable hour from April to September. There would be difficulty in working the system of synchronizing office and other clocks by hourly signals from Greenwich, which has been in general use for many years. That system is different in action from ours, and it would have to be altered if the Greenwich signals came at 20 minutes past the hour or 40 minutes past the hour.

2962. But not if the alteration was only one hour?-If it was only one hour it would not be affected; so that my remarks here reier simply to the proposed four alterations of 20 minutes eachthey would be altogether modified by that. An alteration of an hour would not affect them in any way at least, not seriously.

2963. That is all that you need say, perhaps, about that question ?-About the question of time signals.

would

2964. Is there some other point that you like to make ?-There was another point about the process by which this change is to be effected. This also refers especially to the 20 minutes change eight times in the year. It would not be so serious if the change were made of an hour, because the minute hand would not have to be altered. Perhaps I may explain that it was a great point in the adoption of the hourly zone system that it would only be the hour that would differ in different countries, but not the minutes or seconds, and that removed a very great difficulty. There seem to be two alternatives :-on the one hand, the minute hands of all Church,turret, and other public

[Continued.

Mr. Pearce-continued. clocks, and also of all smaller clocks and watches must be set forward 20 minutes at 2.40 a.m. on four Sundays in April, and set back 20 minutes at 3.20 a.m. on four Sundays in September; or, on the other hand, allowance must be made for the error of the clock or watch 20 minutes fast or slow. The British Watch and Clockmakers' Guild consider the first alternative impracticable. It is pointed out that railway clocks are usually wound and set by outside experts, and that the clockmaker does not wind the clocks in the small

hours of Sunday morning. When and by whom are the alterations to be made? What will happen if a signalman forgets to alter his clock? The second alternative, which is more likely to be practically adopted, is liable to lead to mistakes and misunderstandings, as clocks will be altered at various times to suit the convenience of those concerned.

Mr. Richards.

2965. You made an observation concerning working men. You believe that those are the people who should be consulted about this change? Yes.

2966. I suppose you know what number of men are engaged in industrial pursuits in this country? -I cannot say that I have any definite knowledge.

2967. I might perhaps give you the information. In industrial pursuits, that is in factories and such like, there are no less than nine millions ?I am not surprised to hear it.

2968. Of men and women-six million men, and the rest are women ?-Yes.

2969. You make the suggestion that we can obtain this by personal effort that means, in particular trades. I suppose you are aware that there are such things as strikes and lock-outs in this country-which I hope will soon be a thing of the past ?—Yes.

2970. Those are the outcome of employers and employed failing to adjust certain things ?—Yes.

2971. Sometimes it is the hours of labour ?-Yes, but may I ask one question: What is the meaning of the hours of labour-the length of the hours, or the beginning?

2972. The present hours ?-Is that the length of the hours-is it eight or nine hours; or do you mean that the hours should begin at five o'clock instead of six ?

2973. My view is that we, as factory operatives, would benefit by commencing earlier in the morning, and getting more leisure in the evening? -I do not wish at all to express any opinion on that point; but my point was this. I wish to understand whether, when you speak of disputes and strikes as to the hours of labour, there has been any dispute as to beginning at five o'clock in the morning instead of six?

2974. Yes, in the building trades there have been disputes of that kind; but I only wanted to show to you that there is an instance in a particular trade where employer and employed differ, and it comes to a mimic warfare. And, of course, the object of this Bill is to use the brain of the country, which is supposed to be Parliament, for the guidance of others. You made a reference

to