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might be necessary with the holy done. In order to understand see; it also appeared to stand exactly the proposed plan of domore favourably with respect to mestic nomination of all future the petitioners themselves. First, bishops, it was necessary that the they stated themselves to be will. House should know the proceeding to acquiesce in the form of ings which now took place for the oath proposed to them in the filling a bishop's see when vacant. bill of 1813. Secondly, as to the The bishops of the province in nomination of bishops, it was, in which he had been situated ashis opinion, necessary to take away sembled together, and having confrom the Pope the virtual nomi- sulted with the priest of the vacant nation of the Catholic bishops in diocese, named certain persons as this kingdom ; and if this plan fit to be chosen by the Pope for were adopted, he was not inclined the new bishop. It had been to forebode more danger to the nearly the constant practice of the church establishment from hence, Pope to choose the person

whose than from the elections without name stood first on the list; but the interference of government in there was no law to compel him the church of Scotland. There to do so. It was to exclude the was a third point not taken notice possibility of any such proceedof in the Catholic petitions, which ing, and to render all future apappeared to him of importance pointments entirely those of the with regard to security, which Catholic Irish priests and bishops, was that of the regium exequatur, that it was now proposed that the or regium placitum, which ad- Pope should issue a concordat by mitted the right of all govern- which he should bind himself to ments to inspect every bull, re appoint no person to be a bishop script, or other document coming in Ireland, except such as should from Rome, previous to publica- be in the first place elected by the tion, and of authorising it (except Irish clergy themselves. It was in cases relating merely to points then proposed by the Catholic of conscience), in the same manner bishops to have the following proas in all the other states of Eu- visions inserted in every bill. rope, Catholic or Non-Catholic. [These were provisos stipulating This, he supposed, would not be that no Roman Catholic clergyobjected to by any rational Roman man shall be elected a bishop who Catholic as a measure of security, is not a native of his Majesty's to which he, for one, looked for- dominions, and who has not taken ward as an essential part of any an elective oath guarding church future arrangement.

and state from any future danSir Henry Parnell returned gers.] As the Pope had commuthanks to Mr. Yorke for his very nicated his readiness to give his valuable, cordial, and conciliating consent to this plan of electing speech; and he hoped to be able the bishops by a larger number to satisfy him that the Catholics of clergy than had hitherto been were perfectly willing to do all concerned in the nomination, and those things which the right hon. also to grant the necessary congentleman required should be cordatum to bind himself to give

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institution to the person so elected, curity, he declared that he found all possibility of foreign influ- himself, as on former occasions, ence in the appointment would bound in duty to support his right be completely excluded, and the honourable friend's motion. He was selection of a proper person would persuaded that the question could be secured by the oath above not be otherwise got rid of. He mentioned.

saw no danger in the measure ; Mr. Webber in a long speech and he did not believe that the gave a detailed view of all that quantum of power which it would had occurred respecting the Ro- give the Catholics would enable man Catholics of Ireland, from them to do mischief, even if they which he drew the inference, that were so disposed. the

now proposed is Mr. Peel, after some prelimiutterly hopeless as a plan of nary observations, said, that there conciliation.

are two systems possible to be Mr. Bathurst, in speaking against adopted in Ireland, between which the motion, said, that one of the we must make our choice: the most extraordinary assumptions one is that on which we are actin the arguments on this occasion ing at present, the other that which was, that things were now brought we are called upon to substitute to such a state, that some change in its place. By the first we give must be effected in the laws re- every toleration to the faith of specting the Roman Catholics. the inajority, but maintain that This he denied in toto ; and main- of the minority as the religion tained, that unless the House was of the state. We exclude them prepared to overturn the funda- from offices which are immedimental principles of the constitu- ately connected with the governtion, it was impossible to accedement of the country, admitting to the concession called for. them generally to all other offices

Lord Castlereagh said, that one and distinctions. This system it of the difficulties which attended is proposed to replace by another, this discussion was, that it was which shall equally profess to scarcely possible to adduce one maintain the religion of the minew argument or new topic which nority, as the established religion, was not alleady exhausted on each but shall open to the Roinan Ca. side of the question. At the same tholics both Houses of Parlia. time it was not the less necessary ment, and every office in Ireland, that Parliament should, with all exclusive of that lord lieutenant. convenient speed, deliver itself It will be my purposc to prove from the agitation of this painful that the law we are now acting subject. It was, however, to be upon is preferable to that which recollected, that there was no pro- it is proposed to substitute in its bability that this question could Do not suppose (said Mr. be laid asleep, by persisting in a P.) that I think that they constisystem of permanent exclusion. tute in the abstract a perfect sysAfter the noble lord had delivered tem, or that I rejoice in the exhis opinion with respect to the clusions and disabilities which subjects of concession and se- they induce. I regret that they



are necessary, but I firmly believe whom it is placed ? This is a systhat you cannot alter them in any tem which cannot last : depend essential point for the better. upon it that it cannot. If you Mr. P. then entered into an exa- exclude the people from connexmination of the existing laws, ion with their own state, they with those meant to be proposed will in the natural course of to supply their places, and in things attach themselves elseevery instance he attempted to where. One part of the Irish poshow, that remaining just where pulation is morbid and excluded; we are is the valy safe an: solid another is unnaturally vivacions. ground of defence.

Let a new order of things mark Mr. Grattan made a concluding the times in which we live; ard speech with much force and ani- let an immediate and effectual termation. He began with posi- mination be put to any clandestine tively denying that there was any intercourse between the Catholics general disposition in the Catho- and the sce of Rome. lics to object to any security; for The right hon.gentleinan's perowhat is for the good of the whole ration was to the following effect: is for the good of the Catholic. “When I see Britain grown up inAfter pursuing this idea to a con- to a mighty empire; when I behold siderable length, he said, some her at the head of the nations of honourable gentlemen speak of the the earth ; when I contemplate her constitution, the state, and reli- power and majesty ; I own that I gion, as opposite to the motion. am deeply astonished to find her Let then state in what the dan- descending from her elevation to gers consist. Until they do so, mix in the disputes of schoolmen their arguments are of no avail. and the wrangling of theologians, Without the foundation of facts who, while they seek for their they prophesy consequences, for own purposes to torture their the purpose of perpetuating dis- countrymen, endanger the secuqualifications on their fellow sub- rity of their common country." iects. The Catholic claims have The question being at length now been agitating for nine-and- loudly called for, there appeared thirty years. They have gone For the motion

291 through every kind of considera- Against it..

245 tion, and their interest doubles at every discussion. In these dis

Majority cussions no doubt individual irritation has occasionally appeared, On May 16, the Earl of Dorand poison has occasionally been oughmore rose in the House of infused into the minds of the Irish Lords to inove for a committee population. Is this state of things to consider the petitions of his to be allowed to exist any longer ? Majesty's Roman Catholic subAre we to continue that sort of jects. Ile said, that he had caused English connexion in Ireland, to be placed upon their lordships which is called a settlement, and table two petitions which he had which must be defended by an the honour of presenting to the army paid by the people grep House during the last session, on


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the same subject. One of these the present practice, yet a great was that of the Roman Catholic deal is given in confirming for nobility and other respectable ever the principle of domestic nopersons of the laity; the other that mination. As to the veto, bis of the prelates and clergy of the lordship acknowledged he cannot Roman Catholic church. Both of offer that, since he certainly disthese parties were equally desirous approves of it as a member of of again offering their petitions Parliament, being convinced that to the view of their lordships; it it would commit the Catholic is necessary, therefore (said the prelacy and priesthood most effecEarl) that the House should be tually to the Irish provincial goperfectly aware that they have now vernment. He objected also to the before them the whole Catholic payment of the Catholic church people of Ireland, represented by by the state, as a mode which these, their humble petitioners. would destroy the just reward

His lordship proceeded to say, which they receive for their relithat thinking it his duty to ab- gious labours. My measure, said stain as much as possible from all his lordship, is a direct and absogeneralities, he should prefer lay- lute nomination, which is what I ing the case of the petitioners mean to propose if you shall be before the House in the shape of pleased to go into a committee. a refutation of those calumnies The Earl then answered those with which they have been so in- arguments which he found scatdustriously loaded. In the course tered here and there in different which he had chalked out for publications relative to the subhimself, the first objection which ject. In general they seemed to occurred might seem rather to require little attention ; but one, suit the period when their lord- which bears hard on the Pope ships had gone into a committee. for his anathemas against sending The Catholics might previously forth the Scriptures among Cathobe asked,

“ What is your object? lics without a commentary, reWe will not go into a committee to ceived a retort which, as respectgrope our way in the dark, and ing the Pope, appears unanswerseek out principles for you.” But able. If it can be shown (says it appears from the public press his lordship) that reverend divines that securities of a threefold na- of high rank in this country have ture have been devised; namely, held a similar principle, then this domestic nomination; the secu- act cannot be alleged against the rity called the veto ; and the pay- head of the Catholic church as an ment by government of the Ca- intolerant one.

There are, my tholic church. , With respect to Lords, two members of that redomestic nomination, the enemies verend bench who most of the Catholics say that this is no strongly opposed to the system of new security at all, for such has disseminating the Bible without been the ancient mode of electing a suitable comment. I wish to Catholic bishops almost without avoid any possible misrepresentaan exception. But though this is tion, and to pay every mark of giving nothing new, looking to respect to the right reverend pre



late opposite me, and have theré- with moving, “That this House fore copied from thé pamphlet, do resolve itself into a committee published by him on the subject of the whole House, to consider of Bible societies, his own words. the petitions of his Majesty's RoThe words made use of by the man Catholic subjects." right rev. prelate, (the Bishop of The speeches on each side were Landaff) are these. “ But it is upon the whole so similar to those urged, if you still require that the delivered in the House of ComBible, however extensively you mons, that little addition by way may wish to distribute it, should of argument can be expected from: be accompanied by the liturgy, them. It may, however, be deyou must certainly suspect that sirable to give a view of what the there is danger to the established Earl of Liverpool, regarded as the church from the distribution of prime-minister of this country, the Bible alone. Here let me ask considered as the leading point. whether the Bible itself is not I now come (said his lordship) capable of perversion? Whether to the main question : Are the the best of books may not be Catholics entitled to enjoy privimisapplied to the worst of pur- leges equal to those enjoyed by poses. Have we not inspired the members of the established authority for answering this ques- religion? It has been well obtion in the affirmative ?-But if served, that in point of abstract we neglect to provide the poor of principle, no description of perthe establishment with the book sons can complain of unequal priof Common Prayer as well as with vilegès who voluntarily place the Bible, we certainly neglect themselves in a situation by which the means of preventing their they forfeit their right to equal seduction from the established privileges. I ask, not only as it church. The dissenters remain affects the Catholics, but as it dissenters, because they use not affects every other body of disthe liturgy; and churchmen will senters from the establishment; become dissenters if they likewise they, when they require equal prineglect to use it with the people. vileges, offer equal conditions ? Have the persons to whom Bibles If they do not, can it be conare gratuitously distributed either tended that there is any injustice the leisure, or the inclination, or in distinguishing between them? the ability, to weigh the argu- I have always considered that the ments for religious opinions? Do civil establishment was necessathey possess the knowledge or the rily interwoven with the church judgment which are necessary to establishment. This will be found direct men in the choice of their a leading and unalienable princireligion ? Must they not learn it, ple in the earlier periods of our therefore, from their instructors ? history. It was the leading prinAnd can there be a better in- ciple at the period of the Revolustructor, in the opinion of church- tion, when the connexion between men, than the book of Common the state and the church was soPrayer?"

lemnly recognized. On that I The Earl concluded his speech rest : 'to that I will adhere. The



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