sacrificed no principle. I consider that | vernment was not adopted from mere the question of Reform brought before the motives of obstruction, from no conviction House was a question, not of principle, but that there was nothing to redress, or noof degree. We had been parties to lowering thing to reform in the Irish Church, for an the franchise, we had assented to the second admission to the contrary was made by the reading of the Bill introduced in 1860 issuing of the Commission now sitting, by the other side of the House, which which may be taken as an acknowledgment effected that lowering to a great extent, that there are reforms to be effected and and we had assented to the lowering of the Amendments to be made; and though some franchise in the Bill of 1866; and I say wish to go far beyond what I should desire, that it became evident-not on account of yet many, who think as I do, acknowledge, disturbance out-of-doors, but on account as I have already done before this time, that of the Parliamentary attitude that the there are evils within the Church; that, as question had assumed-that it became has been said by many of her Bishops, many absolutely necessary to deal with and, if of her clergy, and many of her attached possible, settle it. I say it was a ques- friends, with a view to strengthening and tion of degree and not of principle. I giving more effect to the administration of should not have said a word about myself that Church great reforms, great alteraif my noble Friend had not brought my tions, and, if I may, without offence to name forward somewhat unnecessarily. Gentlemen opposite, use the word, great In fact, my noble Friend took especial "modifications" are needed. It would have pains, as it appeared to me, to compliment been idle and absurd, after having assented my sincerity at the expense of my pliability. to a Commission upon the Irish Church, if But I trust that, as concerns principle, I the Government had not been prepared to shall be found as ready to maintain those act upon the facts which may be proved principles in which we both agree as he before that Commission, and to ameliorate himself has been. Let me for one moment, where it was found necessary. I do not in passing, advert to the course my noble mean to say that the present Parliament is Friend has thought proper to take this not competent to deal with the subject, beyear. My noble Friend has been the firm cause it is obvious that so long as the House consistent advocate of church rates; but is in existence it must have all the powers this year he has taken a different view, and functions of a legislative Assembly. It and this suddenly - unexpected no doubt is not a question of competence, but of time, by those sitting near him, and certainly occasion, and opportunity. The facts are by those who have hitherto acted with him. these :-At a comparatively late period of Far be it from me to say that this was the Session, with very little progress made from any want of principle. I believe that in Supply; with Boundary Bills, involving he acted from a patriotic feeling, and from the interests of eighty-one boroughs and that principle for which I hope he will give of one or two counties; and with two Recredit to others. I am sorry to have de- form Bills-one for Scotland and one for tained the House so long on this matter, Ireland-in which Amendments of great and will now come to the question before importance will be moved, and which must the House. We are called on at a special take a long time it is with these things and peculiar moment to go into Committee before us, and with the necessity of calling upon a question of the greatest possible for an early dissolution of the House and importance, and one that cannot be settled an appeal to the country I say, with or terminated—I will not say in this Par- these things before us are we not right in liament, nor probably in the next; nor for saying that the House is incumbered with many years to come, in my opinion. This business, measures of great importance are is met by an Amendment on the part of pressing upon us, and therefore this is not my noble Friend, to which great exception the time to come forward with an abstract has been taken. I will for a moment take Resolution? The first Resolution of the notice of a remark that has been made on right hon. Gentleman is distinctly and that Amendment. My noble Friend claimed solely an abstract Resolution, which canfor himself freedom of acting in future not pledge the new Parliament that will Sessions on this great question, without have to assemble in a few months, and expressing his full opinion now; but, at the which he himself admits cannot be carried same time, he said that he wished to make into effect by legislation in the course of it manifest by the earlier part of his Reso- the present Session. I say, then, that lution that the present course of the Go- this question is one which has been sudVOL. CXCI. [THIRD SERIES.] U

denly started upon the country; it has | ferring the right to that property at any time taken the people by surprise. If it had before or during those 300 years? In what not been started so suddenly, if it had way has that transfer been made? I will not come but recently on the minds of not, however, enter now into that question, those who produced it, why-when the because if I did so I might possibly call up opportunity was afforded by the Motion of opposition on the other side. But I conthe hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Maguire) tend that when we are dealing with a mass to go into Committee on the state of Ire- of property of so much importance and of land of submitting this question of the so long prescription it is not a matter for Irish Church to the consideration of the haste, and you have no right to force it upon House-why did not the right hon. Gen- the country until it has the whole case before tleman produce his Resolutions then, and it, and until we have an opportunity of conask the House to consider them in connec- sulting the constituencies upon it. Suppostion with the state of Ireland? If this ing we had met these Resolutions by a direct had been done we should have had time negative-which, as far as I am personally to consider them, and they could certainly concerned, I should be, and am, perfectly have been discussed at an earlier period of prepared to do-and I think you will find the Session than they have. Is it un- that not only I personally, but all who sit reasonable that we should ask for time to on this side of the House will be ready consider so important a matter? Is it to take the same course-but supposing, I unreasonable to ask for time in order that say, that we had met these Resolutions the country should consider the ques- with a direct negative, what would be said tion upon which it must eventually de- by hon. Gentlemen opposite? I know what cide? Even within the short week we would be said. It would be said that we have had the rustle of petitions increas- object even to enter into an inquiry upon ingly heard from both sides of the House this question-that we object to go into day by day. As time goes on I venture Committee, and that we are not prepared to say that more and more petitions will to admit that there is any reformation be brought here, and as the question be- needed in the Irish Church.-Whereas, by comes more thoroughly understood in the the Amendment we propose, we say that country they will yet increase. Already, if it were shown before the Commission too, I notice that many of the Noncon- that reformation was needed we are preformist body have petitioned against the pared to act upon such Report, and to show Resolutions of the right hon. Gentleman, that when we assented to the Commission so that the feeling against them is not being issued we were prepared to receive confined to Churchmen. And, after all, its judgment with respect. The right hon. the right hon. Gentleman himself stated Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Moncreiff), in last night he did not anticipate that this his speech last night, did me the honour great measure which he had in hand could of calling attention to something I said in be carried into effect under much less time 1865. I have only to say now that I have than thirty years, and yet now, forsooth, nothing to alter as to the opinions which I it is a question of hours; it is not to be then expressed. I expressed those opinions adjourned for a few months in order that it in all sincerity and candour in favour of may be placed in all its integrity before the the Establishment of the Irish Church and country. I will show before I sit down the retention of its endowments. I do not that the proposition is one which evades mean to express a difference of opinion, and the chief difficulties of the question, and I speak now precisely as I spoke then. only deals with those portions of it upon But I am told I am to renounce all the which unity of action can be obtained; old arguments in favour of that Church. whereas, if the right hon. Gentleman had The right hon. Gentleman the Member developed his whole plan it would be certain for South Lancashire said yesterday that to split his supporters into many sections. those arguments were of such a character The Resolutions aimed a blow at the pro- that no one would think of using them perty of the Irish Church, which I, as a now. Sir, I trust I shall be able to show Churchman, maintain has, during the last that there are authorities which might even 300 years at the very least, and indeed, have influence with the right hon. Gentleas I believe for a much longer time, passed man-authorities who have used these down in regular succession into the hands arguments, and who, like myself, are not by which it is now held. If this be not ashamed to use them still, because they so, where are the Acts of Parliament trans- are just and apposite to the question we

have in hand. I have on a former occasion |-who does not certainly sign his name called attention to a speech of the right hon.["Oh, oh"]-although he has not signed Gentleman in 1865. I should not enter into his name to this letter he undertakes to this matter now; but the right hon. Gen- produce the document to which he refers tleman himself has challenged discussion if any doubt be thrown upon his statement. as to the propriety of his bringing this It is, I presume, very well known that question forward, and as to the consistency many letters are published in newspapers he has shown in doing so. The right hon. anonymously-nay, it is the commonest Gentleman said that for a period of twenty- thing, I believe, for gentlemen to have five years his opinions have been forming their letters published without their names on this subject, and that they have gradu- being attached to them, at the same time ally arrived at the position which led him to furnish their names privately to the to assume the position which he now oc- editors, with the intention of coming percupies. The right hon. Gentleman said sonally forward to substantiate their statethat in the year 1846 it was impossible ments in case they should be questioned. for him to pledge himself on principle to The right hon. Gentleman had said last maintain the Irish Church. Now, I wish night that in 1865 he looked for action in to ask him to whom he made that state- the coming Parliament; and therefore it ment known? [Mr. GLADSTONE: To my was that he had made that speech. But Committee.] The right hon. Gentleman did he look for action in the coming Parsays it was proclaimed to his Committee; liament? Was there a hint of such a he must have had a singularly judicious thing in the speech itself, however disCommittee, for until the right hon. Gentle- tinctly it made known his opinion on the man rose last night the declaration was a Church in Ireland? Was not the speech secret that had never been revealed to the of 1865 a statement that the difficulty was public. ["Oh, oh!"] Before I go further so great, the problem was so difficult of I think it but right to call the attention solution, that he could not make up his of the right hon. Gentleman to statements mind when the subject could be brought which have appeared in the public Press, before Parliament with any chance of its so that if they be incorrect the right hon. settlement? But let us see what the right Gentleman will be enabled to contradict hon. Gentleman is said to have written at them, or if not, how he can reconcile his that very time, for if the statement is unstatements last night with his former pro- true it is most unjust; if true, however, it fessions. I say nothing of the right hon. bears with remarkable force upon the quesGentleman's opinions now; but even in tion as to whether the right hon. Gentlepapers most earnest in his support there is man really gave warning in 1865, coupled manifest surprise at the announcement of with the expression of his opinion that this a change of opinion in 1846 or 1847. The question of the Irish Church was a pressright hon. Gentleman now says, in his ing subject immediately coming before the speech of last night, that in 1865 he gave House. The writer of the letter I have a warning to his constituents of the course referred to says that just before the Oxhe was to take on the question of the Irish ford University election of 1865, Church. The speech alluded to was no doubt dignitary, a consistent supporter" of the a warning that the right hon. Gentleman right hon. Gentleman, made his vote consaw something very unsatisfactory in the ditional on his explanation of the doubtful Irish Church; but it was certainly not a point. The writer addswarning of the particular course which he has now taken. The right hon. Gentleman now states that this is not a question of surplus or of amendment; but a question whether the Irish Church Establishment should be disestablished and disendowed. In 1865 the right hon. Gentleman said

"It would be their duty to consider-whether surplus or no surplus-what obligations of the Act of Union remain to be fulfilled, and how they ought to be performed."-[3 Hansard, clxxviii. 434.]

And now I find, in a letter published in the newspapers, it is stated by a gentleman

66

one

"A mutual friend was the medium of commu

nication, and the reply contained the following assurance, which was then deemed to be as satisfactory as it was intended to be. The document called in question. It may suffice, however, to itself is at your disposal if its authenticity be quote the following passage."

Then comes the quotation from the right hon. Gentleman's assurance, as follows:

-

"The question of the Irish Establishment is remote, and apparently out of all bearing upon the practical politics of the day."

Did the right hon. Gentleman write that to one of his Committee or to one of his supporters? If he did it seems to me wholly