vide adequate food, clothing, medical aid, I might not be introduced, and that was or lodging for children under fourteen, inspection by medical officers. The prewhereby the health of such children was sent Inspectors of the Poor Law Board endangered, Clause 35 gave power to the were not able to make frequent visits to guardians to institute a prosecution, and any particular union; and they did not made the offence one punishable on sum- possess the knowledge and experience nemary conviction before two justices by cessary to enable them to advise guardians imprisonment for any period not exceeding as to the management of their infirmaries, six months, with or without hard labour. the accommodation required by patients, These were, he believed, all the explana- the arrangements as to nursing, and a tions in reference to the provisions of the variety of details upon which it was most measure with which he need then trouble desirable that guardians should be advised their Lordships. He was quite willing to by a competent person. Those who acted refer the Bill to a Select Committee; but as chairmen of local Boards would feel it would be on condition that the Com- their hands strengthened by the appointmittee should confine itself to the clauses ment of such an officer. He was glad to of this Bill, and not discuss the general observe that the noble Earl had taken a question of Poor Law administration. power of establishing infirmaries in certain THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, whilst ap- places. He did not think those infirmaries proving the proposal to extend the powers were needed in rural unions; but in large of the Poor Law Board, concurred in the and populous places such as Birmingham, opinion that the increased powers should he thought they might be established with be scrutinized closely. This, however, great advantage, not only to the sick poor was essentially a Bill of details, and it but to the ratepayers themselves, in the was exceedingly difficult to understand greater economy which would ultimately its clauses without reference to previous result from the good management of the Acts and Committees. Therefore, it would sick poor. The clauses providing instrucbe desirable to refer this Bill to a Select tion for the children of poor persons in Committee, which would be better able workhouses in the religion to which their to discuss the effect of the clauses than parents belonged were entirely in accor would a Committee of that House. He dance with the general principles of our concurred with the noble Earl that the legislation. The provisions for securing Select Committee ought not to go into the contributions from men who had deserted general question, but ought to confine their wives and families were excellent. itself to the clauses of this Bill. One of He would not now refer to certain Amendthe clauses which raised a doubt in his ments of which he had given Notice, and mind was that relating to the appointment which, personally or through some noble of a visitor. The character of it seemed Lord, he proposed to move in the Select to be peculiar; for it proposed to enable the Committee. Poor Law Board to appoint a person to superintend, control, and inspect the guardians appointed by the union at the ex-mittee. pense of the union itself. The general principle on which legislation had hitherto proceeded was that local bodies elected by the ratepayers should control their own affairs and pay for the expense of such control, and that the Government should provide an adequate system of inspection, and pay for it out of the Imperial funds. Without very strong reasons that general principle ought not to be infringed. Boards of Guardians were supposed to enjoy the confidence of the ratepayers; and it would be rather hard to pay a person appointed by the Government to inspect them out of the funds they administer. While expressing a doubt with regard to this clause, he thought it might be worth while to consider whether one kind of inspection THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Com EARL GREY pointed out that extreme inconvenience frequently arose in unions from the fact that guardians representing small outlying parishes, and who never attended the ordinary Board meetings, went down sometimes in a body on special occasions, and out voted those who generally conducted the business of the union, often preventing important improvements from being made. He suggested that there should be Poor Law divisions in the nature of electoral districts; and that each division of a union should be represented by guardians who, in their number, bore a just proportion to the wealth and population of the district they represented, and who should be as few as possible.. THE EARL OF AIRLIE pointed out that there was no power taken in the Bill for the erection of infirmaries. LORD REDESDALE said, he could not approve any provision tending to reduce the number of guardians attending a Board. It was never found inconvenient to have a large Board. On the contrary, it was extremely desirable that a Board should be large and that many persons in a country district should be made acquainted with the working of the Poor Law Board-an object which could be attained only by having large Boards of Guardians. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY concurred in the proposal to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. After a few words from The Earl of DEVON in reply, Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn; and Bill referred to a Select Committee. THE EARL OF CORK said, that the Bill would to some extent "disestablish" certain oyster fisheries of Ireland, as they were beyond the three-mile limit provided for by the Bill, and were therefore left unprotected by the present measure. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND said, the noble Earl referred to the Arklow fisheries on the coast of Wexford, which had been under the control of the Irish Fishery Board. But the noble Earl had forgotten to state that oyster fisheries outside the three-mile limit were not within the jurisdiction of the Irish Fishery Board at all. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, he objected to the Bill passing in its present shape, as its effect would be to offer inducements to the Channel fishermen to go to Ireland during the close time in the English Channel. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND said, that under the Convention of 1839, a close time And, on April 2, the Lords following were had been agreed to and acted upon between named of the Committee : Order of the Day for the Second Reading read. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that it had been rendered necessary by the new Convention on the subject of the sea fisheries with the French Government. During the passage of the Bill through the House of Commons, some points of law had arisen as to the effect which the Bill would have on certain fisheries connected with Ireland, and he had thought it right that a case in reference to these points should be drawn up and submitted to the Law Officers of the Crown. In the meantime he proposed to take the second reading of the Bill, on the understanding that the Committee would not be proceeded with until after Easter, when he would be in a position to state the effect of that legal Opinion. this country and France as regarded the English Channel; but by the operation of this Bill that close time would be reduced by six weeks, so that the inducements to which the noble Lord referred would be proportionably diminished by the measure. Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accord ingly. House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Monday, March 30, 1868. MINUTES.]-SELECT COMMITTEE-On Scientifio Second Reading-Local Government Supple- Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2." Withdrawn-Local Officers Superannuation (Ire-(The Duke of Richmond.) land)** [17]. IRELAND-STAKE-NETS ON THE SHIANNON.-QUESTION. COLONEL FRENCH said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether he intends, in the present Session of Parliament, to introduce any measure to put a stop to the re-erection of the stake and bag nets and other obstructions to the navigation of the River Shannon, removed by order of the Special Commission on Fisheries? THE EARL OF MAYO said, in reply, that, in consequence of a decision in the Court of Queen's Bench, a number of stakes and bag nets had been erected in the Shannon and other rivers in Ireland; and it was the intention of the Fishery Commissioners to make inquiries into the matter, and until their Report was made it would not be desirable to legislate upon the subject. COMMISSION ON FALSE WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.-QUESTION. LORD EUSTACE CECIL said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, When the Report of the Commission on False Weights and Measures, referred to by him at the close of last Session, is likely to be issued, and what prospect there is of his being able to introduce a Bill upon the subject this Session? MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, the Secretary of the Commission informed him that great delay had been occasioned by the death of certain members of the body, and he was not able at present to state when the Report would be ready. METROPOLIS-BURLINGTON HOUSE. QUESTION. MR. COWPER said, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether arrangements are in progress at Burlington House to enable the Royal Academy to vacate, in the early part of next year, the galleries occupied by them in Trafalgar Square? LORD JOHN MANNERS replied, that by the terms of the lease to the Royal Academy the Government reserved to themselves the use of Burlington House until Christmas, 1869. Considerable difficulties had arisen with regard to the alleged interference with the lights of the Albany, which had delayed the prosecution of the works, and he was not able to say whether the works would have so far progressed as to enable the Exhibition of the Royal Academy to be held there next year. IRELAND-SEARCHING SUSPICIOUS PERSONS.-QUESTION. MR. BLAKE said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether he has seen an account of the Government authorities at Cork having compelled two respectable girls who were present at Mackay's trial (one the sister-in-law to the prisoner) to undress in an exposed room, in disregard of their entreaties that the blind of the window should be drawn down he will direct inquiries to be made as to while they were undressing; and to ask if whether that account is true? that his attention had not been called to THE EARL OF MAYO said, in reply, the circumstances of this case until he saw the Notice of the hon. Member on the Paper. He had made inquiries upon the subject, and he had been furnished with a Report from the Constabulary Officer, of which the following was an abstract: "On the day of Mackay's trial for murder much excitement prevailed, and a report was generally circulated that, in the event of conviction, an attempt would be made to rescue, and therefore orders were given that all suspicious persons should be excluded from the Court. The actions of three females while in Court attracted the attention of the police, and roused suspicion, as it was supposed that they might have revolvers or some explosive substance concealed about them. Accordingly, when the Court adjourned, they were brought to the housekeeper's room, where they were searched by the female searcher. Two submitted to the search; the other refused, and she was not searched. The room to which they were taken had no blind to the window; but no person could see into it, as it was only overlooked by the windows of the Judge's and Jury's room, all of whom had left the Court, which was shut up at the time." ARMY-COOKING APPARATUS. QUESTION. MR. THOMSON HANKEY said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, If an Army Cooking Apparatus, made and patented by Messrs. Jeakes and Co., has been submitted to or reported on to him; and whether it is not a much cheaper and much more efficient Cooking Apparatus than that of Captain Warren, R.N.? SIR JOHN PAKINGTON replied, that he was unable to answer the Question of the hon. Member, as the apparatus had not been reported upon. He had given directions that both apparatuses should be tried at the Wellington Barracks. IRELAND-CASE OF MR. JOHNSTON. QUESTION. COLONEL FORDE said, he wished to ask, Whether the Government will authorize the Governor of Downpatrick Gaol to allow the friends of Mr. Johnston to see him in private, and on his parole to take exercise through the gaol grounds? zances. THE EARL OF MAYO said, in reply, that he would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that Mr. Johnston might, if he had pleased, have left the gaol on the 10th of March last, for his sentence was commuted by the Lord Lieutenant on condition that he should enter into his own recogniThis he refused to do, and he therefore still remained in gaol. He had every reason to believe that the ordinary regulations of the gaol had been considerably relaxed in Mr. Johnston's favour; but, although it was not his province to interfere with these matters, he had written to the Governor to intimate that no objection would be offered on the part of the Government to the relaxation of the rules of the gaol, provided that relaxation were made in accordance with the wishes and views expressed by the Board of Superintendence. The CLERK then read the following Article: "That it be the 5th Article of Union that the Churches of England and Ireland, as now by law established, be united into one Protestant Epis copal Church, to be called the United Church of England and Ireland; and that the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government of the said United Church shall be and shall remain in full force for ever, as the same are now by law established for the Church of England; and that the continuance and preservation of the said United Church, as the Established Church of England and Ireland, shall be deemed and taken to be an essential and fundamental part of the Union; and that in like manner the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government of the Church of Scotland shall remain and be preserved as the same are now established by law, and by the Acts for the Union of the Two Kingdoms of England and Scotland." MR. H. E. SURTEES moved that the Clerk read that portion of the Act of William and Mary that now applied to the Coronation Oath of Her Majesty. The CLERK read the following formula prescribed for use on such occasions by the Act referred to :— "ARCHBISHOP.-Will you solemnly promise and swear to govern the people of this United King dom of Great Britain and Ireland, and the dominions thereto belonging, according to the statutes in Parliament agreed on and the respective laws and customs of the same? "QUEEN.-I solemnly promise so to do. "ARCHBISHOP.-Will you to your power cause law and justice in mercy to be executed in all your judgments? "QUEEN.-I will. "ARCHBISHOP.-Will you to the utmost of your power maintain the laws of God, the true profession of the Gospel, and the Protestant reformed and preserve inviolably the settlement of the religion established by law, and will you maintain United Church of England and Ireland, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established within England and Ireland, and the territories thereunto belonging? of England and Ireland, and to the churches there And will you preserve unto the bishops and clergy committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges as by law do or shall appertain to them or any of them? "QUEEN. All this I promise to do. "Then the Queen, taking the coronation oath, would say these words-The things which I have here before promised I will perform and keep. So help me God.'" MR. GLADSTONE: I now rise, Sir, to move that this House will immediately resolve itself into a Committee to consider the said Acts-that is to say, the Acts relating to the Established Church in Irethat the Gentlemen who have just interland; and I cannot for a moment regret posed Motions, accepted as matter of course by the House, should, by the passages they have caused to be read from the existing laws of this country, have reminded us upon how solemn a duty we are now about to enter. I likewise construe those Motions as implying that there are in this House men who intend to meet the plain, the broad, and intelligible proposition which I ask the House to accept by other propositions equally plain, broad, and intelligible, and that the great controversy-the solemn controversy, for such it is-in which we are about to engage, is not to be degraded that I go one step by saying that as in an operation so extended there will necessarily arise matters to be considered which are as much or more matters of feeling than of strict rule and principle, and as there will be likewise points which may be subject to fair and legitimate doubt, my opinion is that every disposition should exist to indulge and to conciliate feeling when it can be done, and in every doubtful case to adopt that mode of proceeding which may be most consistent with principles of the largest equity. Sir, if I am asked, what I look upon as the conditions under which the State should endeavour to enter upon a new state of things, as far as regards the religious Establishment in Ireland-if I am asked what it is that, in endeavouring to put an end to the present Establishment, I renounce for the future, I would again say that that which I renounce for the future is the attempt to maintain, in association with the State, under the authority of the State, or supported by the income of the State, or by public or national property in any form, a salaried or stipendiary clergy. But as those connected with the Established re into a warfare of trick and contrivance, but is to be conducted on the other side of the House, as well as on this, in a spirit which befits the magnitude of the issue. Now, Sir, I originally proposed the Resolutions which I have placed on the Paper under the expectation that I should have explained them to a Committee of the whole House; but the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) exercising a perfectly legitimate discretion. has appended to the comparatively formal Motion, as far as its words are concerned, which I now propose to make, an Amendment raising the merits of the case, and has thus thrown upon me the responsibility and duty of endeavouring to explain to the Ilouse without delay the general nature of the proposition which I wish to submit to it in antagonism to that of the noble Lord. Sir, I intend to ask the House, if it should go into Committee, to assert in the first place, that in our opinion the time has come when the Established Church of Ireland should cease to exist as an Establishment. I do not think it would become me, either at the present moment, or at any subsequent stage of the debate, which may or may not follow, to make myself responsible, in all its important and com-ligion of Ireland are not the only persons plex details, for a plan which shall have interested in this matter, it is right that I for its aim to give effect to my purpose. should say, in regard to other bodies who It would show, I think, entire forgetfulness now receive grants for purposes of religion, both of the limits of my duty and of the either directly for religious worship or for resources which I have at my command, education having religious worship for its and likewise forgetfulness of the limits of ultimate end, that, in my opinion, the more duty pertaining to a party in opposition limited cases of those bodies must be met to Her Majesty's Government, were I to by the application of analogous principles undertake responsibility for the details. of of justice, equity, and even, I would say, such a plan. At the same time I, think, indulgence; but beyond that I hold that on the other hand, that I should not be the aim of all these proceedings would be justified in endeavouring to shelter myself to comply -as far as I understood the under the freedom of a Member of the words read by my hon. and learned Friend Opposition from distinctly indicating to the the Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) to Government, the House, and the country comply with the language of the prayer the general bases and conditions of the of a petition he has presented, and to measure which I wish to suggest for con- put an end within the realm of Ireland sideration. Therefore, Sir, I say, partly to all Grants from the Consolidated Fund repeating and partly enlarging words which to be applied for purposes of any reI used on a former occasion, that the aim ligious denomination whatever. Having and purpose of that measure is to cause said this much I think I have only to add the cessation of the Established Church of one more proposition, and to say that, when Ireland as far as it is a national Establish- after satisfying every just and equitable ment of religion. That cessation must, in claim, we shall have to contemplate at my judgment-I will not merely say might, some future time the application of a resinor ought, but, in my judgment, absolutely due, that residue will have, in my judg. must-be subject to the condition, in order ment, to be treated strictly and simply as to make it an honourable and worthy mea an Irish fund for the benefit of Ireland. sure, that every proprietary and every think that with these words I have satisvested right shall receive absolute com-fied the duty incumbent on me, not of propensation and satisfaction. And beyond posing a distinct and perfect project upon I |