principle of payment by results; but the fact was that the practice which they had adopted might more correctly be described as that of non-payment for non-results. The object of the existing system was to take care that the money given by the State should be expended for the purpose of securing the greatest possible efficiency. If the necessity for a certificate were dispensed with, a man without any character at all might start a school; and if he were only able to produce children who could read, write, and count, he would get the public grant. Another point of importance had reference to the appointment of a Minister of Education, and the desirability of such an appointment had been very much urged by some of those who took an interest in the cause of education. He, however, had great doubts as to the expediency of an appointment of that kind. He was aware it was said that no one knew who were the Lords of Council, or what was the amount of their responsibility; but he had not the slightest doubt whatever that if any great maladministration were at present to be detected in the Education Committee of the Privy Council, the person who would be subject to the severest Parliamentary censure on that account would be no other than the noble Duke the President of the Council. Technically and practicaily, the President was responsible for anything that went wrong; and the admirable civil servants belonging to the Department, so long as they acted under their political chief, had absolutely no responsibility whatever. He might be asked how it was-if he entertained that opinion that Mr. Lowe had resigned while he had retained his office when a Parliamentary censure was passed upon the conduct of the Council? But he believed he could offer a satisfactory explanation upon that point. He tendered his resigna. tion upon that occasion, as Mr. Lowe did, to Lord Palmerston, who requested him to withdraw it. He (Earl Granville) stated that he could not do so unless Lord Palmerston could induce the House of Commons to withdraw the stigma they had attached to the Council. Lord Palmerston effected that object, and he (Earl Granville) accordingly withdrew his resignation; whilst Mr. Lowe, who thought that he had been the subject of a personal censure, refused to adopt the same course. He was conscious that during his tenure of office he had been guilty of many sins both of commission and omission, but on the most

careful reflection he did not believe that he should have avoided any one of them if he had been a Secretary of State instead of President of the Council. In reference to the appointment of a Minister of Education, he might further state that he thought it objectionable to multiply offices giving seats in the Cabinet, which he was disposed to think was already too large; and it was also not without objection to increase the number of the Secretaries of State. That question had some bearing on a point to which two noble Lords had already referred-namely, with respect to stereotyping in an Act of Parliament the largest portion of the Revised Code. The Council were obliged to add supplementary rules after the Revised Code had been issued, and he defied any person who held the office of President of the Committee of the Council, who had a real view to the public interest, not to find himself constantly engaged in making slight improvements and filling up small gaps in the system to prevent it from falling into confusion. He was, on the other hand, aware that the noble Duke at the head of the Department might have felt that the concessions which he was asked to make would lead to concessions much more serious of public money, as well as to a diminution of the check upon public expenditure, and that he might have deemed it advisable to embody the whole of these matters in an Act of Parliament, because such a step might have the double effect of preventing the whole system from going backwards, and at the same time of preventing encroachment. But, be that as it might, he now came to the most important part of the Bill-the Conscience Clause. So important was it, that the considerations connected with it were of themselves sufficient to prevent him from voting against the second reading of the measure. His noble Friend who moved its rejection (the Earl of Airlie) had, indeed, shown that the Conscience Clause, as at present framed, was entirely unsatisfactory, and for his own part he (Earl Granville) thought that the wording of it must be amended, and that its scope must be extended. The whole of the Members sitting on the Liberal side in the House of Commons were, he believed, in favour of a Conscience Clause, and the most eminent Members of the Government had at different times signified their adhesion to that view. The best arguments advanced in favour of such a clause had, he might

add, emanated from the pens of clergymen while the Commission to which he had already referred had strongly recommended its adoption in the case of endowed schools. But it was of still greater im portance that, a Conscience Clause having been proposed by the Government as a Government, the second reading of the Bill in which it was embodied should be carried; for the passing of such a measure, even in its present imperfect shape, would, he felt, stop for ever that non possumus argument which was advanced to show that it was impossible the clergy could conscientiously accept such a clause. Of one thing he felt perfectly sure, and that was, that nothing was of greater importance for the Church of England, and nothing more certain to arrest the secularization of the children of this country, than the sanction by Parliament of a clause which largely satisfied the conscientious scruples and objections of the Nonconformist portion of the population. He was also desirous of voting for the second reading of the Bill because it was, he thought, impossible not to perceive the truth of the observation of the noble Earl on the cross Benches (the Earl of Kimberley) that it was only a portion of a scheme-in fact, the tragedy of Hamlet with the part of Hamlet left out; and if it were sent down to the other House modified and improved in a great many particulars, an excellent measure might be produced, quite consistent with its provisions; or, what was still better, the Bill might be brought back to their Lordships' House with the part of Hamlet re-inserted, and that with the sanction of the Government. His noble Friend (Earl Russell) concurred, he believed, in the view which he had expressed; and he ventured to appeal to his noble Friend behind not to press, under the circumstances, his Motion for the rejection of the Bill to a division.

THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, the noble Earl who had moved the Amendment (the Earl of Airlie) had adopted the somewhat unusual course of comparing the provisions of the measure under discussion with those of another which had not yet been brought under their Lordships' notice, but was in the other House of Parliament. He should not, however, follow the noble Earl into that comparison, but should confine his remarks to the other points more immediately bearing upon the Bill before the House. The first point to which he would advert was the objection taken to

the proposition to create a Minister of Education. It seemed to be assumed that the proposal had reference simply to those duties which were now connected with Parliamentary Grants and with the administration of education as it was now conducted by the Committee of Council. He (the Duke of Marlborough) must confess that he should not deem it expedient to appoint such an official if his functions were to be confined simply to the performance of those duties. But their Lordships could scarcely fail to perceive that there was beyond the performance of those duties a very wide and important field to be taken into account. He need hardly remind the House of the various Commis. sions that had been appointed to inquire into the state of education throughout the country, and that within the scope of their inquiries came the primary schools, the Irish endowed schools, the middle class schools, the public schools, and the large grants in connection with them which it was the duty of the Privy Council to administer, and which now amounted to more than £900,000 a year. When they considered how various and important all these subjects were, he thought that Parliament could hardly deal with them except through the agency of some responsible Minister; and he thought the appointment of a responsible Minister of Education, capable of dealing with the subject in a comprehensive spirit, and of framing measures with the view of consolidating and uniting the different branches of primary and secondary education into one great whole, would be likely to be productive of the greatest possible advantage. The noble Earl who had just spoken had asked him, whether he was of opinion that the duties of the Committee of Council on Education could be better administered by a Secretary of State than, as was at present the case, by a President, assisted by a Vice President, and he (the Duke of Marlborough) must say he concurred with the noble Earl in thinking that they would not be so far as those duties went. But then, there were beyond those the important functions to which he had adverted, to which it was impossible for the Presi dent and Vice President of the Committee of Council, with the work which they had already on hand, adequately to devote their attention. A notion seemed to prevail that the President of the Council had little or nothing to do but to administer the Educational Grant and to preside over

year; and moreover that that increase had been produced by changes made in the Office to a great extent, and made, he ventured to say, almost without the authority of Parliament; because they had it on the testimony of Mr. Lowe that the Revised Code, though laid from time to time before Parliament, was rarely considered by any one. Those changes were made by a kind of spurious mode of legislation which he thought was extremely objectionable. When, therefore, that was converted into a system based on the authority of an Act of Parliament, they would thereby offer the public the best guarantee that the expenditure for elementary education would not be excessive, and that if it increased at all, it was only through the ordinary and natural increase of the schools applying for assistance, and not through various alterations, made by the whim or caprice of a Minister of the Crown. The next part of the Revised Code was the conditions under which pupil-teachers were employed. Nothing could be more important than the employment of pupil-teachers, and the conditions relating to that subject ought not to be changed, but were worthy of being made a permanent portion of our national system. Again, the conditions on which grants were made to normal schools were sufficiently known and settled to obviate any inconvenience in their being incorporated, as they ought to be, in an Act of Parliament, along with the other great sections of the Revised Code. He was almost unwilling to trouble their Lordships at that late hour by any reference to the subject of rating; but he would remind their Lordships that in introducing the Bill he had distinctly stated that the Government did not regard it as a complete measure. The question of rating was one that had excited a vast amount of controversy in the country; and although several of their Lordships had that night expressed strong opinions in favour of that principle, he was by no means satisfied that the proposals for rating had obtained general concurrence from the public. He believed that a very large section of the community was opposed to rating for education, upon conscientious grounds as well as upon fiscal grounds. It was impossible to see the burdens that were gradually increasing in the large towns and other districts without perceiving that it was very dangerous, without grave consideration, and without being perfectly certain that municipal bodies themselves

were willing to undertake them, to impose additional burdens upon them. When it was urged, as it had been by a noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) that a power might be given to municipal bodies to rate themselves, he might remind their Lordships, by way of illustration, that a few years ago an Act, called the Free Libraries Act, was passed, by which municipal corporations were empowered to rate themselves for scientific and literary purposes; but that power had hitherto proved almost entirely nugatory, the Act having been put in operation to a very small extent indeed, if at all. If rating powers were given to municipal bodies, they would in all probability remain a dead letter, and he did not believe a rating system would successfully provide for elementary education unless the Minister of Education had the power of compulsion. As to the Conscience Clause he was glad to learn that the course pursued by the Government was so strongly approved by the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville), who thought it of such merit as to justify the second reading of the Bill, notwithstanding his objections to other portions of it. For his own part he thought the principle of a Conscience Clause was a sound one to this extentthat where a child could not obtain secular instruction, except in a school where the religious teaching would do violence to its conscience, or to the consciences of the parents, parental authority ought to be recognized, and there ought to be relief from the disabilities which would otherwise be incurred. The Government had, however, endeavoured to meet the objections of many persons to such a clause by providing that it should be applied only in cases where but one school existed. To apply it to the annual grants would be unwise and impolitic, since large numbers of schools had been built on the faith of a Conscience Clause not being required, and were, in fact, purely denominational schools. Ex post facto legislation of that kind would be very unfair. With regard to an educational Census, the object was to obtain accurate information, and, whether Parliament hereafter agreed to a rating system or continued to rely on voluntary effort, such information would be of the utmost importance. He thought it probable, indeed, that the taking of such a census in any district, and the apprehension that, failing all other means, Parliament would feel itself justified in enforcing a system of rating, would induce a great