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Difpute betwixt the Church of Rome and as Invocation of Saints, Purgatory, &c. to go at once to the bottom of the Caufe, and examine the Ground and Foundation of Faith, as taught in the Church of Rome; which is fbewed, I think to a Demonftration, to be wholly precarious and uncertain: And that there is no greater Difference and Confufion among any fort of Men, upon any Subject whatsoever, than there is among the Divines of the Church of Rome, concerning her Rule of Faith, and Infallible Judge of Controversy. And every one of the different, Opinions about it, is in flat Contradiction to all the others, so that if any one of them be true, all the reft inuft be falfe: And yet they all pretend to believe with Divine Faith, and think it neceffary in this cafe, because it is the Foundation of their Faith.

Now if according to thefe Learned Doctors, the whole Church failed upon our Saviour's Death, then the Gates of Hell did prevail for a time. And if the Virgin Mary were excepted, that would not do much as to the Standing of the Church. But have they any Revelation, to ground Divine Faith upon, or upon what Grounds do they believe, that the Virgin Mary knew the Scriptures, or the Refurrection of Chrift, more than the Apostles, and was not under the fame Defpondency as they were? This feems to be that Sword which Simeon told her, thould pierce through her own Soul alfo, Luke ii. 35.

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PUL. To avoid all these things, fome fuppofe, That the Chriftian Church was not formed till the Defcent of the Holy Ghoft at Pentecoft, when Peter converted about 3000, as told in the 2d of the Acts. And that it was of this Chrift fpoke, when He told Peter that He would build His Church upon him, and called him a Rock, and that it was fulfilled at this time, when Peter was made the Instrument of that firft and great Converfion, which was the Foundation of all that followed.

G. If the Chriftian Church was not formed, as fome think, till after the Refurrection, becaufe our Redemption was not till then compleated: Or, as others think, till the AfcenJon, when Chrift commiffioned his Apoftles to go and teach all Nations, Matth. xxviii. 19. Or till the Defcent of the Holy Ghost, when they were endued with Power from on High. Luke xxiv. 49. Yet any of these ways it will follow that there was no Chriftian Church before the Death of Chrift. And then that the Jewi was the only true Church while Chrift lived in the World. For the Jewish Church was to laft till the Chriftian was formed, elfe there was no Church at all after Chrift came, till His Refur rection. And then it would follow, that the only True Church in the World did reject our Chrift. And then there will be no Choice left us, but either to acknowledge the Fallibility of the Church, or to reject Chrift from being the Meffiab. But if the Chriftian Church was formed upon the first Appearance of Christ in the

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World, or upon his Ordaining the Twelve Apoftles, and fending them out to preach, or upon any other Act done in his Life; then, as faid before, the whole Church failed upon His Death. But if the Church cannot fail, no not for a Moment, because of the Neceffity of a Living Infallible Judge always in being, the Succeffion of the Monarchy of the Church ought to be Hereditary, where the King never Dies : For this Scheme will not admit of an InterRegnum for Months or Tears that may be spent in the Election of a Pope, in all which time the Church has no Head or Monarch. Much less when there are Popes and Anti-Popes, which has occafioned 26 Schifms in the Church of Rome, fome of them of long Continuance. And who is Judge in fuch a Cafe? Is every Man left to his own private Fudgment. And is it all one which of the Contending Popes he adheres to, whether to the Right or the Wrong? Or can the Church have two or three oppofite Heads at the fame time?

L. Therefore in France, where I received my Education, they place not the Infallibility in the Pope, but in a General Council.

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G. I told your Lordship.before, that there never was a Council truly General. That there are Difputes in your Church concerning General Councils, fome receiving thofe, or Parts of them which others reject. And who hall be Fudge in this Cafe?

But fuppofe you were agreed among your felves concerning your Councils, and that they

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were Infallible, yet they are not a living Judge always in being; you have not had one fince that of Trent, which began in the Year 1545, and concluded in the Year 1563. Now 150 Years ago. And there may not be another in twice that time, if ever. Where then is the living Fudge always in being, which the Bifhap of Meaux and others think neceffary?

L. General Councils may in this Sense be called Living, and always in being, that their Canons are always in being, and determin Controverfies to thofe who regard them. And if new Herefies, or Controverfies, or Schifms of Popes Jarife, new Councils may be called to Determin

them.

G. And Ages may pafs before that can be done. And the Churck may be corrupted in the mean time for want of fuch a living Judge. As Europe is now fituated it would be pretty difficult to have a General Council. And it may be long enough before any Pope may be of Opinion to call one, or hazard his Supremacy upon it.

(19.) But, My Lord, the Canons of Paft Councils are not Living, nor can speak for themfelves. There are Volumes Printed of the Learned in your own Communion giving contrary Expofitions of the Canons. I will Inftance in one, the Third Canon of the Fourth, commonly called the Great Council of Lateran, acknowledged to be a true General Council by all of the Church of Rome, eftablished in moft exprefs and pofitive Terms, the Pope's Power

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of Depofing Princes, and Abfolving their Subjects from their Allegiance, not only if he please to call them Hereticks themfelves, but if they do not Extirpate all Hereticks out of their Dominions. This is maintained in the literal Senfe by Bellarmin and the Italian Doctors. On the other hand, the Gallican Church who have Condemned the Depofing Doctrine, and yet own this Council of Lateran, are put to hard Shifts, and many Diftinctions to Solve this, bur it is impoffible, for either that Doctrine must be true, or this Council has greatly Erred.

L. But not in Faith. This is no Matter of Faith.

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G. But is it not Matter of Salvation, for which we fhall be Judged at the laft Day? St. Paul fays, Rom. xiii. 2. They that refift the (Lawful)Powers,fball receive to themfelves Damnation Wherefore (fays he,Ver. 5.) Te must needs be Subject, not only for Wrath (or fear of temporal Punishment from these Powers) but alfo for Confcience fake, that is, towards God. And what are thefe Guides of Confcience who lead us wrong in this? In the Defcription of the last Judgment given by Chrift, Matth, XXV. 31. to the end, Men fhall be Judged chiefly for their Practice. There is nothing mentioned there but what Men have done. And have we no Guide as to Practice, while we raife fuch Contentions about a Guide in Faith? Or is the Church a Guide in Practice too? And is a General Council the Church. Then the Church has led us into a damnable Practice, un

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