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FEB. 11, 1825.]

Topographical Surveys.

[Senate.

gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. HAYNE,) that the
bill of last year authorized the President to go on, from
year to year, and that Congress was bound, from year to
year, to appropriate the requisite sum.
He (Mr. C.)
differed from the gentleman. He understood that, when
this appropriation was made last year, the President
was authorized to direct such surveys to be made as he
thought proper during the year, and then to make a
report to Congress, that, if Congress were called on for
a further appropriation, they might know what had been
done. It was important for them to deliberate well be.
fore they acted; he, therefore, moved that the further
consideration of the bill be postponed till Monday, that
the estimates, &c. should be printed, that the Senate
might know on what grounds they acted, and, if con-
venient, the President should be called on by the com-
mittee to report what Roads and Canals had been sur-

roads have been cut under every administration, and in
some cases with perfect unanimity. This power was
derived by different gentlemen from various parts of the
Constitution. Some considered it as growing out of the
military powers, others derived it from the commercial
power, and others still maintained that it was necessary
for the transportation of the mail. On several occasions
Congress had passed acts appropriating large sums for
particular works, such, for instance, as the Cumberland
Road. Now, the survey bill of the last session merely
directed the President to cause surveys to be made of
all such roads and canals as were, in his opinion, neces-
sary, for either of these purposes, and to submit the
same to Congress. When, said Mr. H. this shall be
done, the question will come up for final decision, whe-
ther Congress shall enter on the work at all, and on what
principles. For his own part, he was free to confess
that, if plans of internal improvement were to be prose-veyed.
cuted by the General Government, he hoped it would
be by a system, embracing a few great works, altogether
national in their character, and in which every state in
the Union would have a common interest. But, if we
are to be called upon, without any system, to prosecute
detached and local works, it was difficult to discover
where the business would end, or the extent of the evils
which would be introduced. As to the present ques-
tion, however, Mr. H. felt no hesitation, but should vote
for the appropriation.

Mr. LOWRIE, of Pa. said, he had never understood that the bill passed last session, was to be final on the subject; and that the appropriation then made would be the only one that would be required for the purpose of making surveys. No one could suppose that $30,000 would be sufficient for that purpose. Mr. L. said, he did not object to the principle of this appropriation, but it was necessary to remark that the committee had received no information as to the manner in which the $20,000 of the appropriation of last year had been expendedthat information had not come before them, though there was no doubt that the accounts had been rendered to the proper authorities, and had been properly settledyet it would have been a satisfaction to him to know what the engineers had done, and how the money had been expended. Mr. L. said his objection went on a very material and important principle, which it would be well for the Senate to decide upon. Amongst the items in the estimate submitted by the Engineer Department, there was an allowance of $3,600 each, for two civil engineers for one year.

Mr. SMITH expressed a hope that the bill would not be postponed. If it were now postponed, the pensioners would suffer great inconvenience by the delay, nor was there any necessity for its postponement on the ground taken by the gentleman from Maine. Mr. S. thought the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. LownIE) had taken a very candid view of the subject. That gentleman supposed that the Engineer Corps would be adequate not only to the common, but to the extra duties. The President had asked an addition to the Engineer Corps, because their number was too small to fulfil all the duties required of them. No such provision had been made, and therefore the Corps could not be adequate to perform these extra duties. It was too late to complain on that subject. Mr. S. then contended that the Executive had pursued the course directed by the act literally, and, in support of this position, quoted the 2d section, whereby the President was authorized to employ two or more Civil Engineers, &c. These Civil Engineers, he said, must have been of much use to the Corps of Engineers, who could not, until lately, have turned their attention to the subject in question. The Executive, in considering the amount of their remunerations, had inquired what had been given them by the different states by whom they had been employed, and had not paid them more. Mr. S. said it was very bad economy, on such important occasions, to take those who would do the business cheapest, and urged the propriety of seeking for men of first rate talent, and giving them a fair recompense: he then concluded by taking up and defending the other items contained in the estimate.

If this were sanctioned, the Executive would have the power of appointing two engineers, with that salary, Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, then rose and reprewithout the authority of law, and without the usual forms. sented the impossibility of the Senate being able to inIf they were necessary for the public service, let there vestigate and decide on the expenses in detail, of mak. be a law passed for their appointment with the approba-ing a survey. It was sufficient for them to make the tion of the Senate. Taking the whole appropriation as appropriation, and it would remain with the proper deit stood, Mr. L. said, he could not vote for it, on account partment to regulate the expenditures and apply it of the principles it involved. The usual way was, in properly. If it were left to the Head of the War calling for an appropriation for any department, to sub- Department, he would seek out the best talents in the mit the whole in one general estimate to the Secretary country, and pay them what they merited. Mr. J. said, of the Treasury, who sent it to Congress, and it was it would be just as well to bring the estimate for buildprinted; this estimate was not amongst those sent in, ing a ship of war into the House, and inquire the price and gentlemen had not had an opportunity of turning of the hemp, and tar, and canvass, to see if they could their attention to this subject. Mr. L. then commented afford it. Did they, in ordering a fortification, inquire on some other items in the estimate, and contended that the price of brick? Several millions were every year some of them were extravagant, and did not grow out of expended under the discretion of these Departments, the act of last session. He further thought it proper that and why should they, in making this small appropriathe whole business should be executed by the topographi- tion, enter thus into the details? He objected to the cal engineers, whose number should be increased if ne- postponement, because he would not have these details cessary, but he should be unwilling, by making an ap-furnished. Had they not sufficient confidence in the zeal propriation, to put it in the power of the Executive to make such offices. Mr. L.. concluded by expressing his willingness to increase the appropriation so as to make it equal to what it was last year, but would not go beyond that.

Mr. CHANDLER, of Maine, said, he understood the

and abilities of their proper Departments? If every one were to urge such objections, how was it possible that any measure of legislation could be carried on in that House? He really hoped it would not be postponed for want of the details of expenditure. If they were examined, it would be found that men of first rate abilities

Senate.]

Topographical Surveys.

had been employed during the last year. Their report would be ready in a few days; it was drawn up with great care and ability, and would be presented to the House in a few days. It would also appear that there was not a single part of the instructions but what had been confined to able hands, and had been executed with great industry and ability. The more these details were examined, and the better the subject was understood, so much more confidence would be placed by the House, in the persons who were engaged in this service. They were not only men of science, but had engaged in the undertaking with the greatest zeal. Internal Improvements were the grandest objects that could engage the attention of this country, and they were so felt by all who engaged in so praiseworthy a pursuit.

Mr. CHANDLER again urged the postponement, for the reasons he had before stated, and said, that the statement of the gentleman from Louisiana, that the report would be soon ready, was, with him, an additional and strong reason for desiring the postponement.

Mr. BENTON said he was against the postponement of the bill. He was of opinion it was totally unnecessary to print the details, for they would be as well understood by being read as by being printed. He said he could not see the advantage that would accrue to the country or to posterity, by having these documents inserted in the volume of state papers-and a delay of a few days would go far to defeat the intention altogether. With respect to the observations of the gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. LOWRIE,) they were, said Mr. B. very sensible in every thing except the misapplication of the time in which they were made-they ought to have been made the year before, when the bill was in agitation on which the President had acted. At the last session, when the bill was before Congress for investing the President with general authority to select such routes as he pleased, he (Mr. B.) had proposed an amendment, and in doing so, he had copied the act of 1807, under which the Cumberland Road was laid out from point to point by act of Congress, which specified the number of persons to be employed, and the remuneration which each should receive. He had proposed this amendment last session, but it was overruled, and the bill in general terms adopted-the consequence was, that the President was bound to execute it-he was bound to carry the laws of the Union into effect. He could not do it himself-he could not with his own hands lay out these roads-he was obliged to employ competent persons to do it, to whom he was obliged to give adequate salaries. The only question now before the Senate was, whether they should continue in the present plan, or whether they should adopt such an amendment as he had proposed last session, specifying the officers to be employed, and the salary each was to receive. If an amendment of that kind were not presented, he should be in favor of applying the bill as

it was.

The question was then taken on Mr. CHANDLER'S motion to postpone, and decided in the negative.

Mr. MACON then rose, and expressed his opinion, that whatever conversation had been held with any Department, could not not be delivered to the Senate unless it came officially from that Department. He certainly did not understand the Constitution as some gentlemen seemed to do, that because a thing was once done, it must become constitutional-that was not his understanding of it. He did not recollect in the United States that a single law had been adjudged by the Courts to be unconstitutional. If this were the fact, that the passing of any law made that subject constitutional, then they would be like Great Britain, where the Parliament was omnipotent, and its acts were the Constitution of the country. One remarkable case had been judged one way, and the Constitutional authority was all the other way. This case had never been settled in any other

[FEB. 11, 1825.

way, and the decision of the people seemed to have
given a character to the Constitution in that particular.
Mr. M. inquired of what use these surveys would be if
Congress were not prepared to go the full length.
Every state was endeavoring to do something for itself,
and if the plans proposed by the General Government,
did not accord with the views of the states, the states
would never do any thing in it, and all the surveys made
concerning roads would be useless. It had been urged
that if this law were not passed, an act of Congress
would be repealed by the refusal. Mr. Mr. said, that
the sum appropriated, would be expended under the
law, but one Congress could not bind the hands of an-
other, to make any appropriation-they were at all times
free and independent to do, or not to do, as they thought
proper.
If the doctrines he had heard this day, were true, there
was no one thing the Government could not do-they
were making roads and canals, and before long be should
not be surprised if they made a canal for the benefit of
the navy. They managed to accomplish all these things
under some clause or other of the Constitution, and by
and by they would be mixed all up together into a kind of
pot-pie. Let any man examine the Federalist, or the
debates of the Virginia Convention, and they would
find that no such extension was given to any article of
the Constitution. How are we progressing? said Mr. M.
We get power faster than the people get money. It
appears to me that the whole of this thing bears a most
extraordinary character—the country is involved, the
people are not able to pay their debts; and I do main-
tain that this country is not in a condition to go on
with expensive projects. The appropriation now
asked for, is only $30,000, say gentlemen; but to me,
whose dealings at home are in the small way, this ap-
pears a very large sum-there is not one man in a hun-
dred, no, nor in a thousand, throughout the Union,
who is worth that sum, unincumbered with debts-he
is a rich man in the interior of the country who is worth
so much.

Referring to the subject of estimates, Mr. M. said the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, with all his sagacity and acknowledged abilities, could not tell him without counting them, how many the committee had received or whom they were from. Every thing was changing in this Government, and they were, in his opinion, doing all business in a very loose manner.

Mr. M. said he had another objection; these Engineers were designed for army purposes. They had no right to divert them from their legitimate duties, by making them Civil Engineers; that formed no part of the contract of the Government with them; it would be like enlisting soldiers to fight, and then setting them to make roads: could they suppose their high-minded officers would like to be going about the country carrying the chain, and taking levels? No. They were raised for fighting, if fighting were necessary, not for making roads.

It was argued, that it was necessary to enter into detail. Mr. M. said they fixed on the places for lighthouses and buoys, and they established post routes; they acted from the best information they could get, and in that way they did legislate in detail. He was for less discussion and more legislation, and yet he thought they now legislated ten times as much as they ought to do. He had advised them to legislate concerning West Point; to fix the number that should be there, and apportion them amongst the states. They said it was useless, and he acquiesced, because he knew he had no chance of standing against that committee.

Mr. M. said he would fix every thing he could by law, and leave nothing to discretion. The natural end of all discretion, in his opinion, was favoritism. He should like to see these details published. If the sovereignty were in the people, as was so often boasted in that House, why not let them see every thing, if it was only a bargain

FEB. 11, 1825.]

Topographical Surveys-Pennsylvania District Courts. [Sen. & H. of R.

of seventy-five cents a day? In his part of the country, a man could be hired for twenty-five cents a day, and work hard too, all day long. Let the people see how their money went. The more we legislate in detail, said Mr. M. the better it will be for the people and for the Executive. Nothing could, in his opinion, embarrass the Executive more, than leaving too much to his discretion. If he had law for his guide, he would be sure to be safe; but if things were left to his discretion, that might not probably agree with the discretion of other people, which might produce some trouble and inconvenience.

Mr. M. considered this question as one of the utmost importance to this nation, and he should consider it his duty to stop it, under the full belief that the sooner it was stopped, the better. He had stated, some time ago, that he had relinquished all hopes of seeing the taxes lessened on the people. Every thing appeared as if they were going to be increased-a certain sum must be kept for the sinking fund; that only kept up the credit of the public debt, or it would not otherwise sell; and he began to think now, that the debt would never be paid.

Mr. M. concluded by saying, that he wished to see that day come when this Government would follow the examples set by Britain, (and he did not often go there for examples,) who, during the last few years, had taken off taxes to the amount of eight and an half millions sterling.

argued that it was not too much when compared with the great abilities that were required for the purpose, the scarcity of such talent and the great demand for it at the present time. M. J. said, that gentlemen did not attack this appropriation in the proper manner-they often lost the substance in pursuit of the form. Last year, a bill was introduced instead of an appropriation; that bill passed, and they refused to go into detail. Now the reverse was the case. If they were to be assailed by all the objections at once that could be started, it would be impossible ever to carry a measure through the House. First, said he, try the constitutionality of the proceeding, and settle that, and then enter into the details, and settle them. He hoped the bill would not be postponed, nor the appropriation struck out. He thought it unnecessary to say any thing further as regarded the principles of the bill-theConstitutional question had been so often discussed, and so much had been said on the subject, that every member must have formed a deliberate opinion. The surveys were important to the country, independent of the Constitutional objection; and he made some remarks on that point.

The question was then taken on striking out the clause, and decided by yeas and nays, as follows:

YEAS-Messrs. Barbour, Bell, Branch, Chandler, Clayton, Cobb, D'Wolf, Dickerson, Gaillard, Holmes, of Maine, King, of New York, Knight, Lowrie, McLean, Macon, Mills, Taylor, Tazewell, Van Buren.-19.

NAYS-Messrs. Barton, Benton, Bouligny, Brown,
Edwards, Hayne, Holmes, of Miss. Johnson, of Ken.
Johnston, of Lou. Kelly, King, of Ala. Lanman, Lloyd, of
Mass. Noble, Parrott, Ruggles, Seymour, Smith, Talbot,
Thomas, Williams.-21.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.-SAME DAY.
PENNSYLVANIA DISTRICT COURTS.

The House having proceeded to the consideration of the following motion, yesterday submitted by Mr. ELLIS, viz:

Mr. LOWRIE said, that the gentleman from Louisiana, (Mr. JOHNSTON,) had not paid sufficient attention to what he (Mr. L.) had said, or he would not have so misunderstood him. He said that it was not for the Committee on Finance to examine these details, but it would be desirable that the Senate should know what had been done-it was impossible they could legislate correctly in the dark. They were called on to make an appropriation for a certain object, for which an appropriation had been made last year, and they certainly ought to ascertain what had been done with that money, before they appropriated more. He had seen nothing "That the petition of sundry inhabitants of Pennsylat all of the reports that were spoken of. The gentle- vania, praying that amendments be made to the law passman from Maryland, (Mr. SMITH,) had said that confi-ed at the first session of the present Congress, entitled dence ought to be placed some where, but he did not "An act to alter the Judicial Districts of Pennsylvania, think that confidence had any thing to do with the sub- and for other purposes," be recommitted to the Comject. No complaint had ever been made as to the man-mittee on the Judiciary, with instructions to report a bill ner in which the money had been expended, but he wanted to know what benefit the Union had derived from the expenditure of that money. He presumed it had been properly expended, but there was no evidence of this before them. He thought that, if they set out wrong in pursuit of an object, they ought to get right again as soon as possible-if he had known last session, that two Civil Engineers were to be appointed with such salaries, he would not have voted in its favor. He had not received that information till last week-therefore, he would now stop-he would not sanction such principles by voting for appropriations. What were they sent to this House for, if they were not to object to what they thought wrong? It was the duty of every member to state his objections when he saw any thing improper: and as far as the Civil Engineers were concerned, he should oppose any appropriation for them.

Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, in reply to Mr. MACON, observed, that, as far as they could legislate definitively on any subject, it was very right to do so; but there were some subjects, in which it was impossible so to do -in building the Capitol, had they a bill brought before them specifying the wages that every man should receive, &c.? These things were beyond the capacity of the House to investigate. It was left to the Heads of Departments, to settle all such minutia, and they sent in their accounts to the proper officers, for investigation and settlement. Mr. J. then referred to the amount of salary intended to be given to the Civil Engineers, and

for the removal of all the causes pending, and untried, before the District Courts of the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, to the Court for the Western District, held at Williamsport, in such cases where the defendants therein, at the time of commencing the said causes, and suits, resided in any of the counties named in the law herein referred to, and in such cases where the parties shall not otherwise agree.

And, also, to confer upon the Judge of the District Court of the Western District, authority to appoint a clerk for the court established at Williamsport, who shall keep the records thereof at the place of holding the court, to be entitled to the same fees and compensation as the clerk of the said court held at Pittsburg."

Mr. ELLIS stated that, in 1802, a petition had been presented to Congress, for the establishment of a Court at Williamsport. After considerable delay, a law was passed, by which eight counties were taken from the Eastern District, and attached to the Western District of Pennsylvania. The court for the Western District had been held, since 1818, at Pittsburg. The bill referred to in the instructions, is intended to provide for the removal of causes pending and untried at Philadelphia, to the Western District. It was necessary to give the House some reason for the removal.

Whoever was acquainted with the geography of Pennsylvania, knew that a range of mountains, forty miles in extent, intervened between Philadelphia and Pittsburg, and a similar range between Pittsburg and Williamsport.

es.

H. of R.]

Pennsylvania District Courts-On Drawback Duties.

[FEB. 11, 1825.

the greater part of the causes tried before the Philadel- Mr. WEBSTER, of Massachusetts, (Chairman of the phia Circuit, are ejectment cases, in which the question Committee on the Judiciary,) complimented the zeal of survey, or no survey, always occurs. Such a question and perseverance manifested by the gentleman from can be made out in ordinary cases only by aged witness- Pennsylvania, as well in the committee as in the House, Defendants are for the most part poor peuple-in prosecuting this object, which he semed to consider as important to his constituents. He then stated the reasons why the Judiciary Committee had not thought it a proper subject for legislation. He explained the present situation of the United States' Courts in Pennsylvania, which the committee considered as well adapted to the general conveniences of that state. The instructions seemed directed chiefly to promote the convenience of defendants in the Eastern district. Ought not the House to hear something from the plaintiffs in these causes? At present, it knew not what the causes were -whether they had been tried, whether any verdicts were obtained, whether there were any demurrers, or what was the number of the suits. Even in the small states, the parties had frequently to go as great a distance to court as in the present instance, and, where that distance was greater than one hundred miles, the laws of the United States provided for taking the testimony in writing.

Mr. W. concluded his remarks, by moving to lay the instructions, together with the amendment thereto, on the table; but withdrew the motion, at the request of

Mr. ELLIS, who suggested, that the remarks of the gentleman from Massachusetts, although they might be thought conclusive against the first branch of the instructions had no reference to the second.

Mr. WEBSTER observed, in reply, that the second branch was useless, inasmuch as the power already resided in the judge to have the record made up where he pleased, and to appoint as many District clerks as be pleased.

the plaintiffs, capitalists, either foreigners or persons residing in another state. Mr. E. insisted upon the hardness of compelling these defendants to attend a court one hundred and fifty miles distant, with all his witnesses, who were necessary to prove his settlement, who must be obtained at great expense, and without whom he must lose his cause. This, when the defendant was a poor man, was in effect to deny him a fair trial. Congress had done the same thing in repeated instances, to some of which he referred. He knew that it might be said, that this would be legislating on vested rights. That the parties suing in the Eastern District had certain rights which pertained to them as litigants, and which would be invaded by removing their causes to a different District. Mr. E. combatted this sentiment he insisted that this was not removing their causes to a new tribunal, but trying them in the same kind of a court as that at Philadelphia. As to the objection that counsel had received their fees, this was a personal consideration, with which Congress had no concern. County lawyers were as capable of conducting their suits as those who resided in the city. Agents had been employed, and they must attend wherever the causes might be tried. He trusted the House would not be governed by reasons of this kind-that they would not seek to accommodate the rich at the expense of the poor. What was the very spirit which governed the administration of all laws? That the plaintiff must bring his suit to the defendant, and not the defendant to the plaintiff : So that the exclusion of the present causes from the Western District, was in reality the only novelty, and not their trial there. There was another branch of the instructions on which he wished to submit a few observations. When the court met at Williamsport, one of the first questions which arose, respected the organization of the court. On examining the law, it was found to contain no provisions for a clerk; they did not ask for a judge, or an attorney, or a marshal-all they asked was an efficient organization, and to this a clerk was necessary. Writs, at present, issue from the court at Pittsburg, and are made returnable at Williamsport, and it has The House having, on motion of Mr. CAMBRELENG, been made a question at which of these places the re-proceeded to the consideration of the bill authorizing cord should be made up. For himself, he believed it the Secretary of the Treasury to direct the completion might be made up at Williamsport; but, at present, they of entries for the benefit of drawback after the period of had to seek a writ from a place two hundred miles off. twenty daysWhat they required was a clerk, in order that process might issue at Williamsport, and be made returnable there. It might be said that this was within the power of the judge, but that had been questioned by some, and it was with a view of quieting all doubt on that subject, that he had added the latter branch of the instructions he proposed to give to the Judiciary Committee. He trusted that the House would not put in competition, with the convenience of one-fifth, at least, of the population of Pennsylvania, the paltry sum of $200 a year to pay the salary of a clerk. He had heard it remarked in conversation, that this would be legislating for the personal convenience of a few, but he asked whether, if it was proper to add the eight counties to the Western District, it was not proper, also, that the causes of those who resided in these counties should be removed into that District.

Mr. LITTLE, of Md. made a few remarks in opposition to the instructions moved by Mr. ELLIS; and

Mr. McKIM, of Md. moved the following amendment, to be inserted after the word "Williamsport:"

"Provided, That the parties who may have causes pending and untried before the District Courts of the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, shall mutually agree to the removal of the same to the Court of the Western District, held at Williamsport."

Mr. ELLIS intimated some doubt on this subject, and Mr. WEBSTER explained.

Mr. ELLIS was proceeding, when the Speaker reminded him that the question before the House was simply on the amendment. Mr. E. made some further remarks, in opposition to the amendment; when, On motion of Mr. WEBSTER, the whole subject was laid on the table.

CONCERNING DRAWBACKS.

Mr. FOOT, of Connecticut, moved to amend it in the first clause, which is as follows: "That, whenever the exporter or exporters entering any goods, wares, or merchandise, for the benefit of drawback, shall not have completed such entry by taking the oath, or giving the bond required by the existing laws of the United States, within the period prescribed by law, but shall offer to complete the said entry after the expiration of the said period, it shall and may be lawful for the Secretary of the Treasury, upon application to him, made by the said exporter or exporters, setting forth the cause of his or their omission, under oath, and accompanied by a statement of the collector, of all the circumstances attending the transaction, within the knowledge of such collector, if he shall be satisfied that the failure to complete the said entry, was accidental, or without any intention to evade the law, or defraud the revenue, to direct the said entry to be completed, and the certificates or debentures, as the case may be, to issue, in the same manner as if such entry had been completed within the period prescribed by the existing laws of the United States," by striking out the words "taking the oath or "

Mr. CAMBRELËNG, of New York, observed, that, if the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Connecticut should succeed, the bill would amount to a mere nullity. The cases in which merchants were una

[blocks in formation]

ble to take the oath were as numerous as those in which they were unable to give the bond, and so frequent were both that there had not occurred a single week, during the present session, in which he had not presented to the House one or more petitions from merchants so situated. Surely, if the Secretary of the Treasury las now power to cancel the bond itself, when given, there can be no great danger in giving him power to remit the penalty incurred by not giving the bond within a certain number of days. This power was to be exercis ed by the Secretary only when he should be satisfied that the individual applying to him had a good and sufficient excuse for not having taken the oath and given the bond, within the twenty days prescribed by law. That officer is already clothed with power to remit almost every other forfeiture provided by our revenue laws. The restriction which obliges the merchant to make oath and give bond within twenty days, was copied from the laws of England-a country which is not more than twenty miles distant from the coast of France, and which is, therefore, peculiarly exposed to frauds, on the subject of drawback. We are not so situated. The restriction was a substantial measure in England; with us, it is, in a great degree, a matter of form. The cases were numerous, and of daily occurrence, in which it is physically impossible that this part of the law should be complied with. A merchant may die-when it is manifest that he can neither take oath or give bond. Yet his executors cannot obtain the debenture, which is justly due to his estate, without coming all the way to this House, at the risk of waiting here, from year to year, before they can get leave to take the oath or to give the bond required. Mr. C. stated several cases of peculiar hardship which had occurred within his own knowledge.

Mr. LIVINGSTON, of Louisiana, said, that, standing in the same situation with the gentleman from New York, who had last spoken, he was obliged to address the House on the subject of this bill, which would give relief to some of his constituents, who were clearly enti tled to it, and, at the same time, relieve the House from the task of examining private claims, and the country from an expense attending such examination, necessarily greater, in many instances, chan the amount demanded. The amendment proposed went to defeat the bill, and he was persuaded that the gentleman from Connecticut would not have offered it had he duly considered the necessity of giving relief to the numerous applicants, and the time, expense, and difficulty of conducting the examination in this House.

[H. of R.

this reimbursement of duties subjected the Treasury to frauds, against which the law contains careful provisions. The goods must be exported within the year, and in the same casks or packages; must be laden in the presence of an officer; 24 hours' notice must be given of the intent to export; entry must be made, specifying the merchandise particularly, and annexing the oath of the importer as to the due importation, and that the duties were paid or secured-then, and not until then, is a permit given to lade for exportation. But this is not all; before the debenture (which, as the House knows, is the instrument which entitles the exporter, or his assigns, to receive the amount of the duties paid) can be received, the exporter must make oath that the goods so laden are intended to be exported, and he must give bond, in double the amount of the debenture, that the goods shall not be relanded in the United States, and that he will, within a specified time, produce proof that they have been landed in a foreign country. The law now gives the party twenty days, after obtaining the clearance, to take this oath and give this bond; and these two formalities alone are the subject of the present bill, which does not abrogate them, but provides only that, in case they are not performed within the time, the Secretary of the Treasury may permit them to be done afterwards, in cases, and such cases only, where the delay has proceeded from accident, without any design to defraud. I pray the House to remark, that the bill does not authorize him to dispense with the oath or the bond, but only to permit the one to be given, and the other to be executed, after the time when all the other formalities have been executed. All those which are enumerated are intended for the security of the United States, to prevent the substitution of goods to their injury, to prevent the relanding of them, or other frauds. these two can never be designedly omitted after the others have been performed, because, until the oath is taken and the bond given, the debenture is not issued, and the exporter gets nothing.

But

In all

.

Now, in numerous instances, and several are now be fore a committee of the House, sometimes accident, sometimes death, and sometimes the neglect of the Custom House Clerks, have deprived the party of the power, after paying or securing the duties, and re-exporting the merchandise, with all the forms required by law, from making the oath and giving the security, which could alone entitle him to the debenture. these cases, recourse must now be had to this House. The petition must be read and referred, the committee must examine and report, the House must debate, and In order fully to understand the bill, it was necessary if, at the end of two or three years, the unfortunate to refer to the nature of the drawback of duties, and to merchant can procure his case to be considered, we are the provision made for preventing fraud in granting it. obliged to give him an order to receive the amount of· Duties, Mr. L. said, were levied, on the supposition that the duties he has paid, after having put our constituents the merchandise, on which they were paid, was intend- to an expense equal, in many instances, to ten times the ed for consumption within the United States. It was a amount of the sum demanded. I say we are obliged, tax paid by the importer, in advance, for the consumer, sir, because the money we have received is not ours. on whom it ultimately fell. As it was uncertain, how- The duties were paid under the faith of your law, which ever, at the moment of importation, whether the mer- directed that they should be repaid on their being again chandise would be consumed or re-exported, the import-exported, on conditions which, if only unperformed er was bound to pay or secure the duties; but, in order to give him a reasonable time to execute his purpose of re-exportation, or to deliberate whether it would be more to his advantage to sell here or to try a foreign market, the law provided, that if, within twelve months after the introduction of the merchandise, the importer chose to export it, the government would refund to him (with a small deduction) the duties he had paid or secured.This was not only just but profitable. It gave a freedom to trade, which was highly advantageous. It made the country an entrepot for commodities not of our own produce, and enabled our merchants to supply one foreign nation with the merchandise of another, as their wants might require. It cherished the shipping interest, and was essential to every operation of commerce. But VOL. 1.-36

through accident or necessity, cannot be enforced, consistent with the dictates of justice.

Now, the bill proposes a remedy for this expense, for this delay, which is equal to a denial of justice, to this interference of private claims, of affairs of fiscal detail, with the public business of the nation: and the remedy is not an unusual or a dangerous one. Already, by law, the officer at the head of the Treasury is authorized to remit all fines and penalties for offences against the revenue, when he is convinced they have not been incurred with intent to defraud. Without any restriction as to amount, even where the courts have condemne, he may interfere and give relief. Nay, in the very subject now under discussion, a much more extensive and im. portant discretion is confided to him the important fact

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