H. of R.]

Western National Road.

[JAN. 18, 1825.

he could not at all concur with the gentleman from policy of making internal improvements, thought that South Carolina, in wishing to restrain the laboring class- nothing should be done until the entire extinction of the es of population in the Eastern States from going to any national debt, when we should enter on the general part of our territory where they could better their con- system proposed. In this he entirely differed. After dition; nor did he suppose that such an idea was any applying ten millions a year to the extinguishment of the where entertained. The observations of the gentleman national debt, we have an annual surplus of at least three had opened to him new views of policy on this subject, millions of dollars, making no allowance for a certain inand he thought he now could perceive why some of our crease of revenue and diminution of expenditure. This States continued to have such bad roads; it must be for surplus he would employ in internal improvements. the purpose of preventing people from going out of During the present year, upwards of sixteen millions had them. The gentleman from South Carolina supposes, been applied to the national debt; near five millions that if our population had been confined to the old thir- had been paid for Florida, leaving still a balance in the teen States, the aggregate wealth of the country would Treasury of more than four and a half millions. During have been greater than it now is. But, sir, it is an error, the current year, after applying about twelve millions to that the increase of the aggregate of the national wealth the public debt, and paying all the other expenditures is the object chiefly to be pursued by Government. The required, there will remain a balance of about three and distribution of the national wealth is an object quite as a fourth millions of dollars in the Treasury. By apply important as its increase. He was not surprised, that ing but ten millions annually, the amount of the exist the old States not increasing in population so fast as ing sinking fund, the whole of the national debt would was expected (for he believed nothing like a decrease be extinguished in about eight years, except the seven was pretended) should be an idea by no means agreea- millions of United States' Bank stock, and the three per ble to gentlemen from those states; we are all reluctant cents. which were payable at the pleasure of the Goin submitting to the loss of relative importance-but vernment. We shall then find ourselves with an annual this was nothing more than the natural condition of a surplus of from 13 to 15 millions of dollars, with which country densely populated in one part, and possessing gentlemen would commence the grand system. And in another a vast tract of unsettled lands. The plan of how are you then, Mr. S. inquired, to expend your 13 the gentleman went to reverse the order of nature, millions a year? Where will you find laborers? Where vainly expecting to retain men within a small and com- will you find engineers, practical men to superintend paratively unproductive territory, "who have all the your numerous works? What will be the effect of throwworld before them where to choose." For his own parting suddenly into circulation thirteen millions a year? he was in favor of letting population take its own course; It will produce an unnatural, feverish, and unwholesome he should experience no feeling of mortification if any circulation in the body politic. It will have the effect of his constituents liked better to settle on the Kansas or of another spawn, another litter of banks upon the comthe Arkansas, or the Lord knows where, within our ter-munity. It will raise the price of labor in an extravaritory; let them go, and be happier if they could. The gant degree. It will require more than twice the sum gentleman says our aggregate of wealth would have to do the same work. Expend 13 millions a year, and, been greater if our population had been restrained with-in less than three years, the price of labor, and every in the limits of the old States; but does he not consider thing else, almost, will be more than doubled. population to be wealth? And has not this been in- But there were other arguments in favor of an immecreased by the settlement of a new and fertile country? diate, gradual, and prudent movement in this great sysSuch a country presents the most alluring of all pros- tem. You will by this means create a great school, in pects to a young and laboring man; it gives him a free- which your engineers will become practically acquainthold-it offers to him weight and respectability in soci-ed with their business. You will elicit talent and educe ety; and, above all, it presents to him a prospect of a improvements every where in relation to this, as well as permanent provision for his children. Sir, these are in- every thing else we have attempted. You will open a ducements which never were resisted, and never will vast field for the development of the mental energies be; and, were the whole extent of country filled with of this people. Canalling was a new business in this population up to the Rocky Mountains, these induce- country; and that immense improvements would soon ments would carry that population forward to the shores be discovered and introduced, he had no doubt. The of the Pacific Ocean. Sir, it is in vain to talk; individuals Secretary of War had lately offered a thousand dollars will seek their own good, and not any artificial aggre- for the best plan for removing the sawyers, &c. from the gate of the national wealth; a young, enterprising, and Mississippi, under the act of last session, which had prohardy agriculturist, can conceive of nothing better to duced more than 300 models, which were under examihim than plenty of good cheap land. nation, and by which thousands would be saved to the country. Similar causes would produce similar effects, in relation to canals constructed over different elevations and surfaces. Thus millions might be saved by a careful and gradual movement, which would be lost by a hurried and wasteful expenditure, by inexperienced and of course incompetent men.

I may have misunderstood what the gentleman from South Carolina first said, in relation to the collection and disbursement of the revenue. I now understand his remarks as only applying to the disturbance in the currency of any portion of the country where large amounts of the revenue are collected, without being again expended. It is true, that those who make an immediate advance of the revenue to Government, must suffer if it does not return into their hands by means of sale and consumption; but he believed that the credit usually allowed by Government to importing merchants was about equal to that allowed by them to the pur-results, to facts. Has the construction of the New York chasers of goods.

Mr. STEWART, of Pennsylvania, rose in support of the bill. He regretted to find the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. M'DUFFIE,) opposed to this measure, from whose talents the friends of the general system had much to hope. With the views of that gentleman in relation to a general system, both at this session and the last, he fully concurred. He regretted now to find that that gentleman, and others fiiendly to the power and the

But, gentlemen are apprehensive that the general system will lose strength by providing for local objects at this time. Not so. It will gain strength. By going on now with a few objects, you demonstrate the utility of such works-you silence opposition by pointing to

canal injured the cause of internal improvement? Had the construction of this great work, the Cumberland road, injured the cause of internal improvement? Ask those who have travelled on it. They pronounced their opinions two days ago, on the bill to vest $500,000 as stock in the Delaware and Chesapeake canai-a measure in which the West had no immediate or local interest—yet, in the whole nine States of the West, there were but two votes against it. Such liberal, generous,

The gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. McDUFFIE,) has contended that the West has been provided for; that they have had their full share; that the two per cent. fund has been expended on the Cumberland road. It was true, two per cent. on the sales of a portion of the public lands had been expended on the Cumberland road-and, if every cent, instead of two per cent. had been expended in the West, he contended the West would still have just claims unsatisfied. Since the organization of the Government, you have expended more than 600 millions of dollars, of which the West paid more than their equal share-and how much of this immense sum had gone to the West? Not ten millions -not one-sixtieth part.

pro

In the last twenty years you have expended more than 470 millions-and how much of it has crossed the Alleghany? Not a fiftieth part of it—not eight millions, excluding the expenditures of the late war. He had said the West had more than their proportion of the revenue-he could demonstrate it. The revenues of the Government are derived from two sources-the customs and public lands. The customs, all admitted, were paid equally by the consumers of imported goods; of course, the West paid of the customs their full portion. But, how is it in relation to the other source of revenue, the public lands? This was derived almost exclusively from the West; it was paid by those who purchased and improved the immense valley of the Mississippi, for which they have paid into your public exchequer more than sixty millions of dollars. Yet, we are gravely told, they have had their share. Where is it ? Where bas it been expended? Let the gentleman point to any expenditures of money in the West. Where are their navies, their ships? Where their great forts and fortifications? Where the immense expenditures for lights, buoys, &c. to protect and facilitate their vast internal trade? None; none. But, say gentlemen, we have done more than we were bound by our compact to do for the West; we have expended more than the two per cent. on the Cumberland road. The Cumberland road was not to be charged to the West; there is not a foot, not an inch of it in any Western state; it commences in Maryland and terminates in Virginia. But have the East no interest in the extension of this road? Will it not enhance the value of your public lands, bring them more rapidly into market, and faciliLate their settlement?

[H. of R.

Mr. S. said, that he had understood the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. McDUFFIE,) as he had been understood, too, by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. WEBSTER,) to say that the customs were paid by the Atlantic cities; he was happy, however, to find, from the explanation just afforded by the gentleman, that he had been misunderstood; though he admitted that the duties imposed on foreign goods were ultimately paid by those who consumed them, still the gentleman insists that they are paid in advance by the mer chants on the sea-board, and that, therefore, they had a strong claim to its expenditure in the East. This position he thought equally erroneous. The duties were, in fact, paid in advance by the Western to the Eastern merchants. What were the facts? It was a matter notorious to every one, that, at present, the Western merchants almost universally were in the habit of purchasing most of their goods in the Atlantic cities, New York, &c. at auction. The importer added the duties, about 33 per cent. to the price of his goods-put them up at auction, sold them to the Western merchant for cash-put the whole amount in his pocket, and gave the Government his bond for the duties, (about one third of the whole sum,) payable in nine and twelve months, without interest. This statement could not be controverted; the facts were notorious. Who was it then, who paid the millions which enriched the public coffers in advance? It was evidently the Western, and not the Eastern merchant.

The gentleman contends, however, that the money expended on the seaboard for the defence of the Atlantic cities, and of foreign commerce, is an expenditure for the benefit equally of the East and the West; that the interior has an equal interest in foreign commerce, by which their produce was carried to market. If the gentleman will consent to make us some good roads and canals, on which we can afford to carry our produce to the Atlantic markets, then he confessed there would be some color for the argument; without this, he contended, there was none.

Mr. S. said, he rose, not to enter into a general discussion of the merits of the bill under consideration, but merely for the purpose of noticing some of the arguments advanced by the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. McDUFFIE,) which had not been answered by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. WEBSTER,) to whom he felt much indebted for the able and disinterested part he had taken on this occasion. This object, however, he hoped he might be permitted to say, in conclusion, had peculiar merits. The work had already been commenced, and was in part finished. This road the Government was bound, by its compact with Ohio, The honorable gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. Indiana, Illinois, and Missouri, to extend to the MissisMCDUFFIE,) has told us that the late war was declared | sippi river. The ground to Zanesville, as far as this for the defence of the West, to repel the tomahawk | bill proposes going, has been carefully surveyed; the and scalping knife. This Mr. S. denied. He contended that it was a war emphatically declared in defence of "free trade and sailor's rights"-it was a war declared in defence of commerce, in vindication of our neutral rights on the high seas. Who will deny that the great causes of the war were the impressment of our seamen and the plunder of our commerce? The merciless tomahawk and scalping knife, to which the gentleman has referred as an off-set against Western claims, was a consequence, and not a cause of the war. It was your war for "free trade and sailor's rights," that let loose the ruthless Savage on our defenceless Western frontier, whose bloody han'l dealt indiscriminate destruction to all "ages, sexes, and conditions." But the people of the West, he said, tad fought and bled gloriously in your war for free trade, they had poured out their blood like water, and now, when they ask for a pittance to make a road out of your ample treasury, which has drained their pockets to the last cent, was it liberal, was it generous, was it just, to refuse it? VOL. 1.-17

route of the road located and fixed, and the estimates all completed and deposited in the proper department: we have the money; a balance of several millions will remain in the Treasury at the end of the year, idle and useless; he therefore hoped, that the pittance asked for, $150,000, to prosecute this grand, this noble undertaking, equally important to the East and the West, as a great national thoroughfare between the Atlantic and Western World, would be granted. The liberal disposition just displayed by the gentlemen of the West, in relation to the Delaware and Chesapeake Canal (nine Western states giving but two votes against it,) he hoped woul·l be reciprocated by their brethern of the East, by their concurrence in the passage of the bill under consideration.

Mr. WOOD, of N. Y. then rose and said that he was not now going to enter into any constitutional discussion, but merely to appeal to the generosity of the friends of the bill, by asking them to put it on a footing where those who differ from them on the constitutional ques

tion can agree with them in its support. If they will so modify the bill as to put the construction of this road under the superintendency of the Legislature of Ohio, I will agree in its support. Great waste must always occur where this is not done-I have authority in saying, that fully one third of the money expended on the Cumberland road-(in support of this assertion, Mr. W. referred to a book lately published by Major Long, which makes in effect, if not in terms, the same declaration.) If the gentleman will strike out the twenty per cent. in the amendment yesterday offered by the gendeman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. BRECK,) and insert seventy-five per cent., I will agree to vote for it. It will then remove the constitutional scruples, by giving the local superintendence to the local authority. The want of such superintendence was the great error in respect to the Cumberland road. There was no preservative authority-no tolls-no repairs-but the road was suffered gradually to go to ruin, and Congress will soon have to make appropriations to repair that road. The plan now proposed avoids these evils; and, if it is adopted, I (said Mr. Woon,) will vote for this bill; in its present form I must vote against it.

[JAN. 18, 1825.

this refusal, their state, aided by its own resources alone, had commenced and executed the most magnificent work of this kind in our country, and one probably equal to any this Government will ever execute. He took the occasion thus to speak of this great work, because he had been one of those who thought it premature. He would frankly confess, (as he should always do when he found himself wrong,) that he had calculated erroneously. He was gratified to find that the result had realized even more than the most sanguine anticipations of its friends, and that it had given an impulse to almost every work of the kind in the Union. The people of New York now rejoice that the Federal Government rejected their petitions, and deprived itself of a share in this great work, and they are too sensible of the advantages they enjoy, to deny, on that account, to the General Government, the exercise of all its constitutional powers in the execution of similar works connected with national purposes.

Mr. C. said he had hitherto uniformly, but silently, opposed measures of this character, only from a doubt of the constitutional power of the Federal Government. He had, however, devoted much attention to the quesMr. CAMBRELENG, of New York, differed from the tion, and, after mature deliberation, he had been led to gentleman who had preceded him, as to the operation the conclusion, that, if a Government, enjoying the enand influence of national expenditures. It was in his tire post-road and military powers of this Union, could view immaterial whether they were upon the ocean or not constitutionally construct a road or a canal, then it the land, their beneficial influence was felt throughout had no incidental power whatsoever. He had, accordthe Union. It was an error to suppose that our expen- ingly, for the first time, given his vote in favor of a subditures for our commerce, navy, &c. were for the exclu- scription to the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal. He sive benefit of the Atlantic states. The beneficial in- considered that canal as one of the links in the great fluence of every expenditure of this kind would reach chain of inland communication from the centre of Caroeven the confines of Mexico, and the remotest hamlet lina to our Northern Lakes, of which the Erie canal on the Missouri or Mississippi, by enlarging the market formed another link, connected, as they would soon be, for all our productions. On the other hand, it was by the waters of the Hudson and the Jersey canal-and equally an error to believe that the Atlantic states de- again, from Carolina, along the Atlantic, to Massachurived no benefit from our national expenditures beyond setts. He was, however, not to be understood as favorthe mountains; every such expenditure would spread able to any particular or great scheme of internal imits influence to our Atlantic borders, and though not provement to be executed by the Federal Government; every where in an equal degree, through every part of he preferred confiding this branch of legislation generalthe Union. He had therefore heard, and not without ly to State Governments-but he was prepared to lend surprise, the question argued, as if the benefits of a incidental aid in some cases, and to execute directly road or canal were limited to the particular country or others, which he considered as of a character more nastate through which they might pass. The advantages tional, and which, from the nature or state of the counenjoyed by the state where the work may have been try, never could be executed by the authority or reexecuted, were unquestionably great, but greater still sources of any state. He considered the work now under were the ultimate advantages of the interior whose pro- consideration, more peculiarly national than any which ductions were destined to pass through this channel to had been projected, and it was immaterial to him whether market. Take, for example, the Erie canal-a work the expenditure was made out of the Treasury, or out of which would do honor to any country-however impor- any particular proportion of the proceeds of our public tant were the benefits which that great work had be- lands. Besides the great national object of connecting stowed upon the state which he had the honor in part the West with the Atlantic, by a direct route, we had a to represent here, still more important were the advan- a direct national interest in opening avenues to our pubtages to the interior. The people of New York, it is lic lands. There can be very few works of this charac true, enjoy a market for their own productions; butter to which the funds of the nation will be applied. For they are besides, the agents of the North and the West, whose productions are increasing in value, and are transmitted through this channel. It is impossible to measure the benefit which this canal must hereafter bestow on our interior country, when we look at its vast extent, and reflect that its productions are annually increasing. He, therefore, considered the location of a great work of this character not as the principal theatre of its benefits. So with the Cumberland road; its advantages were chiefly and permanently to be felt in As it regarded the time and the means, he could not that country beyond it, whose productions reach a think any moment better than the present, if it was our market from which they had been previously excluded. intention ever to do any thing. At the last session a seGentlemen seemed to think that New York had great rious attack was threatened on our revenue systemcomplaints to make against this Government for reject- but happily it was not successful. We can now, with ing its applications for assistance. Mr. C. thought they greater certainty, estimate the revenue of the country. greatly misunderstood the sentiment of his constituents, Should there be no war-and there is at present no parand of the people of the state of New York. Whatever ticular reason why we should anticipate one, the public regret they might have felt when the Federal Govern-debt will unquestionably be entirely extinguished in ten ment refused its incidental aid in executing their canal, years. Besides this, there must be, in the aggregate, an it was to them now, a matter of congratulation, that, by increase of revenue beyond the amount required for the

himself, he should judge of each work as it might be presented to their attention. He preferred this courseit was moderate. In this way, something may be effect ed. He preferred this practical course to any theoretical opinions or the anticipations of a magnificent system of internal improvement which might never be realized. He should wish the attention of the Federal Government limited to a few great works, and that they might be decided on as required.

JAN. 18, 19, 1825.]

Yazoo Land Claims.-Niagara Sufferers.

[Sen. & H. of R.

redemption of the debt within ten years, growing out of indemnity for 957,600 acres, amounting to $130,425, was an annual and natural augmentation of population, resisted in behalf of the Georgia Mississippi Company on wealth and trade. Some portion of this surplus might, the ground that the consideration money for said lands without inconvenience, be devoted to these objects. had not been paid, and that, therefore, they were, in Should we, however, postpone these measures, as gen- equity, entitled to the indemnity provided by the act of tlemen desire, and should a war intervene, we shall then Congress. The Commissioners decided in favor of the have occasion to lament that we had permitted this op- Georgia Mississippi Company, and the 130 425 dollars portunity to escape. He believed our surplus means were deducted from the amount awarded to the New were fully adequate to an annual expenditure as great, England Mississippi Land Company, and distributed as at least, as he was willing to vote for, and he should sin follows: $50,608 48 to individual members of the Georcerely regret any delay. With regard to this particulargia Mississippi Company, who had released to the Unitroad, he felt persuaded there was no constitutional im- ed States, under the act of 1814, to whom the same has pediment to our constructing it-the road was national accordingly been paid; $79,816 52 was reserved to the in its character, and national in its beneficial influence- United States, as being the shares of those claimants, it would benefit every part of the Union. It would be who, not having been paid the consideration money by difficult to ascertain, with mathematical precision, which the persons who had purchased of them, claimed to be portion of our country would be benefitted more than still the legal and bona fide owners of said lands, and, as another; but it would be still more difficult to find a such, had availed themselves of the prevision of the respot within our boundaries which would not feel the ad- pealing act of the state of Georgia, and obtained the revantages of the Cumberland Road. payment of the consideration money by surrendering their titles to the state. The petitioners object to this decision as erroneous, and they ask to have the $132.425 paid to them by the United States, or their release to the extent of the $957,600 acres cancelled, so that they may assert their title to the lands in a court of law.]

Finally, the question was then taken, by Yeas and Nays, and decided as follows:

YEAS.-Messrs. Alexander, of Tenn., Allen, of Tenn., Allison, Baylies, J. S. Barbour, Bartley, Beecher, Blair, Bradley, Breck, Brent, Burleigh, Call, Cambreleng, Campbell, of Ohio, Clark, Cook, Crowninshield, Cushman, Durfee, Dwight, Ellis, Farrelly, Forward, Fuller, Gazley, Gurley, Hayden, Hemphill, Henry, Holcombe, Houston, Ingham, Isaacs. Jennings, Johnson, of Va., J. T. Johnson, F. Johnson, Kent, Kremer, Lawrence, Lee, Letcher, Little, Livingston, Locke, M'Arthur, M'Kee, M'Kim, M'Lane, of Del. M'Lean, Ohio, Mallary, Martindale, Mercer, Metcalfe, Miller, Mitchell, Md. Moore, Ky. Moore, of Alab., Neale, Newton, Owen, Patterson, Penn. Patterson, of Ohio, Plumer, of N. H. Poinsett, Reed, Reynolds, Ross, Sandford, Sloane, Wm. Smith, Standefer, J. Stephenson, Stewart, Storrs, Test, Thompson, of Ky, Tomlinson, Trimble, Udree, Vance, of Ohio, Vinton, Wayne, Webster, Whittlesey, White, Wickliffe, James Wilson, Henry Wilson, Wilson, of Ohio, Wolf, Woods, Wright-93.

NAYS.- Messrs. Alexander, of Va., Allen, of Mass. Bailey, Barber, of Conn. P. P. Barbour, Bassett, Buchanan, Buck, Campbell, of S. C., Carter, Carey, Cocke, Collins, Conner, Crafts, Craig, Culpeper, Day, Dwinell, Eddy, Edwards, of N. C. Findlay, Foot, of Con., Foote, of N. Y. Frost, Garrison, Gatlin, Gist, Govan, Hamilton, Harris, Harvey, Herkimer, Hogeboom, Hooks, Jenkins, Lathrop, Leftwich, Lincoln, Litchfield, Livermore, Long, Longfellow, M'Coy, M'Duffie, Mangum, Matlack, Mitchell, Penn., Morgan, O'Brien, Olin, Plumer, Penn., Randolph, Rankin, Richards, Saunders, Sharpe, Sibley, Arthur Smith, Alexander Smyth, Spaight, Sterling, A. Stevenson, Stoddard, Swan, Taliaferro, Tattnall, Taylor, Ten Eyck, Thompson, of Penn., Thompson, of Geo. Tucker, of Va., Tucker, of S. C., Tyson, Vance, N. C. Whipple, Whitman, Williams, of N. Y., Williams, of Va. Williams, of N. C. Wilson, of S. C. Wood-82.

So the bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading.

IN SENATE.-WEDNESDAY, JAN. 19, 1825.
YAZOO LAND CLAIMS.

The Senate took up the report of the Judiciary Committee, unfavorable to the petition of Ebenezer Oliver and others, Directors of the New England Mississippi Land Company.

[The petitioners appeal from a decision of the Commissioners appointed to carry into effect the compromise between the United States and the holders of Yazoo lands, under the act of 1814. The report sets forth; That, before the Commissioners, the petitioners, as trustees of the New England Mississippi Land Company, claimed, as the persons entitled to the one million five andred and fifty thousand dollars, directed to be issued to the Georgia Mississippi Land Company; their claim to

The committee, for the reasons which they set forth, declare the prayer of the petition unreasonable, and that it ought not to be granted.

Mr. MILLS moved to reverse the decision of the committee, so as to declare the petition reasonable; and fol lowed his motion with a speech of considerable length, and much earnestness, in support of it.

Mr. HOLMES, of Maine, (a member of the Judiciary Committee,) replied to Mr. MILLS at equal length and earnestness, in support of the report of the committee, and against the petition.

Mr. LLOYD, of Mass. followed, in support of the petition, and against the report.

Mr. TALBOT, (a member of the Judiciary Committee,) followed Mr. L. on the same side, and addressed the Senate more than half an hour, in support of the jus tice of the petition, and against the report.

The debate had continued between two and three hours, when Mr. TALBOT had concluded; and Mr. VAN BUREN, (chairman of the committee who made the report,) expressing a desire to submit his views in its support, asked to be indulged until to-morrow, as the hour was now late, and moved to lay the report on the table; which was agreed to.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.-SAME DAY.
NIAGARA SUFFERERS.

The House passed to the order of the day, which was the third reading of the bill "further to amend the act authorizing the payment for property lost, captured, or destroyed, by the enemy whilst in the service of the United States, and for other purposes."

The bill was accordingly read a third time, and the question being "Shall this bill pass?"

Mr. VANCE, of Ohio, rose, and said, that before the question was taken, he wished for the reading of one of the documents which had been received from the Departments, showing the amount of moneys which had been already paid for losses on the Niagara frontier. He was persuaded that, on this subject, a mistaken idea was still entertained by many gentlemen who supposed that the $500,000 and upwards, awarded under the act of 1816, had all been paid for the buildings destroyed on that frontier. The several parts which made up that sum, had now been separated, and it would appear that, instead of $500,000, there had been paid to these unfortunate claimants on that frontier, who had suffered more in the last war than the whole of the rest of the Union, but $64,000.

The documents were read accordingly.

Mr. TRACY, of New York, then rose, and observed,