of

of Alogging in the British army in India. | before the House; because he was sure He could not conceive why the French, that they had been the means of lessening the Portuguese, the Spanish, and even the application of corporal punishment. the Hindoo troops, should be exempted But there was a great difference between from this punishment while it was inflicted the abrogation of this power and the nonon Englishmen.

use of it. In his opinion, the infliction of Mr. Warburton said, that in contrasting corporal punishment ought only to take the modes of punishment in our army place in extreme cases ; but the power with those in the French army, hon. gen- inflicting it ought not to be entirely retlemen had spoken of the latter as though moved. He argued this question on the no other punishments were known in it same principles of humanity which hon. besides solitary confinement and death. gentlemen on the other side so strongly They had forgotten all the gradations of insisted upon; but he came to a very punishment; that in the French army different conclusion. Remove the power offences were divided into two classes, the of inflicting corporal punishment, and the one of which consisted of faults against only resource, in cases of mutiny, would discipline, and the other of crimes. Faults be death. This, then, in point of fact, against discipline were visited with four- was the humanity of the noble lord : leavteen days' confinement, being kept on ing the military judges no mediate course, bread and water for three days, and other he compelled them to pronounce the senpunishments of a lenient nature. Crimes tence of death for an offence which did were the subject of the sentences of a not deserve so severe a punishment. As court-martial, and the punishments assign- to foreign armies, the punishments in ed for them were travail publique, irons, them, so far from being more lenient, were death. He knew of no system better much more severe than in ours, and were calculated to remove offences than a gra- inflicted at the will of non-commissioned dation of punishment like that adopted officers, and without any trial. Seeing, by the French, and the success of that as he did, that the British army was able system convinced him that it might be to beat the army of any other nation to beneficially adopted in the English army. which it was opposed, he was unwilling to He was sorry that the suggestion which alter the discipline under which it had the hon. member for Montrose made last been brought to its present state of perfect session had not been attended to; namely, discipline. that flogging should be confined to regi- Mr. Hume said, it would seem from the ments on foreign service. He thought it speech of the gallant member that the well deserving the attention of the House. British army owed its superiority over

Colonel Lindsay said, that hon. gentle- other armies to the system of flogging that men ought not to forget of what class of prevailed in it. Now he was by no means persons the army was composed. Some disposed to admit, that a practice which of them were wayward and disorderly, and had a tendency to degrade the soldier, and a great portion of them exactly at the age to brutalize his mind, was a practice newhen men's passions were the most un- cessary to sustain the character of the governable. Physically speaking, the British army. In Holland, Prussia, and army was the most uncontrollable body of in Wurtemberg, as well as in France, men in the community. And yet they fogging had been abolished with the most had to undergo the greatest privations ; beneficial effects: and even in Austria, were exposed to insult without the means and the few other places where it was conof resenting it; and were called upon to tinued, the flogging did not take place by do their duty silently and instantaneously. removing the clothes of the soldier pubIt was therefore absolutely necessary that licly, and punishing him in a manner so such men should be restrained by a very revolting to humanity as was practised in severe code of laws. He would call upon our service. When it was admitted that the noble lord who wished to abolish this punishment was not inflicted in more corporal punishment in the army to say than one regiment out of four or five, and what he would substitute in its place. He even then very seldom, it was evident that was free to admit that military men were the perfect state of the discipline of our greatly indebted to hon. gentlemen, and army was not owing to this practice. He especially to the hon. baronet, the member had proposed a safe experiment; namely, for Westminster, for bringing this subject that the abolition of this punishment should be extended, in the first instance, did not, as in France, form a particular to England. They would then see what class of the community, and, still preserylittle effect this revolting species of punishing their military character, think themment had in preserving the discipline of selves of a superior order to the rest of the army, and with what safety it might their fellow-subjects. be extended to the whole British army. Lord Palmerston said, he would not In this country, where, in any extraordi- again go over the old argument upon this nary case, the aid of the civil might be subject. To state the objection to what called in to assist the military power, he was proposed generally, it was this,--that thought the experiment might with pro- where there were large bodies of armed priety be made, and he had submitted a men collected together, strong measures proposition to that effect last year. In were necessary to keep them in order. India, lord Combermere had almost alto- Means which might be used for this end gether abolished corporal punishment. in other countries, could not be resorted to He had issued a general order, which re- in this. How, for instance, could the stricted the infliction of it to stealing, ma- punishment, so much insisted on, of solirauding, and acts of gross insubordination, tary confinement, be inflicted in this counwhich would render the soldier unworthy try? Our troops were not in strong garof the military service; thereby limiting risoned towns or military fortresses, where this degrading punishment to persons who men could be confined apart from their had been guilty of the most infamous of- comrades. We had no mode of imprisonfences. He hoped the day was not far ing soldiers, except sending them to the distant when this brutalizing practice common gaols; and he did not think that would be altogether abolished.

an association with the ordinary inhabiColonel Wood thought that, although tants of gaols would be likely to send a corporal punishment was not allowed in soldier back to his regiment at all imforeign armies, the discipline of them was proved. It was a great mistake to suppreserved with greater severity than in pose that corporal punishment did not preours, because the infliction of capital vail in foreign armies. Foreign soldiers punishment was more frequent. The no- were subject to blows and stripes, and ble mover had attributed to him an argu- the only difference between them and ours ment which he had never used: that no- was, that in the one case this species of ble lord had made bim say that, as boys punishment was inflicted with trial, and in were flogged at school, he saw no reasons the other without trial. He apprehended why soldiers should not be flogged. Now, that the House would not be inclined to no such argument had ever fallen from his follow this course. Many of the substilips. He had commanded a regiment for tutes for this punishment in foreign counmany years, and had always introduced tries would not be tolerated in England. corporal punishment as seldom as possible. If our soldiers were seen parading the There was, perhaps, no regiment in which streets with cannon-balls chained to their it had been inflicted in so few instances. | legs, such a spectacle would be much He was not, however, of opinion that the more revolting and disgusting to the pubpunishment could be altogether done away lic mind than the present system. The with, although it ought to be as seldom re- noble mover wished to abolish all corposorted to as possible. In some instances ral punishments, except for certain ofhe had had recourse to it; and there were fences named in the clause,

Now, the two in which young soldiers, on whom it mutiny act and the articles of war said, had been inflicted, had thanked him for “ Go to the civil power whenever it is posthe salutary effect it had had upon them, sible,” and the cases in which this was in deterring them from continuing in a not possible were the very cases in which course of offences which would have led the noble lord wished to do away with to severer purishment in the end. The corporal punishment. The mutiny act

had been contrasted with the was passed to provide for cases which armies of other countries. For his part, called for the immediate interposition, and he thought the British soldiers, who had which the ordinary course of the law could beaten all the armies that had been brought not put down. These were, desertion, disagainst them, had military characterenough. obedience, insubordination, and mutiny, Besides, as soon as they were disembodied, whatever it might be, and these the noble they fell into the mass of the people, and lord wished to exclude from corporal

THE

punishment. But the noble lord's pro

HOUSE OF COMMONS. position involved an impossibility; and he thought that it would be better to say that

Tuesday, March 11. there should be no punishment but death,

STATE OF

ELECTIVE FRANand take away corporal punishment alto- chise.] Mr. Sykes said, it would be gether, rather than make such dangerous recollected, that he had, at the end of the exclusions as these.

last parliament, endeavoured to draw the General Duff protested against any attention of the House to the state of the hasty attempts to remodel an army which unrepresented freeholders in certain counhad driven the invincible legions of France ties corporate, and that he had brought in a from one end of the world to the other. bill which was read a first time, declaratory The amendment was negatived. of what he conceived to be the law upon

the subject.

He found that there were Roman Catholic LAND-Tax Bill.] many districts, separated from the counties On the order of the day for committing to which they belonged, in which the freethis bill,

holders had no right to vote at the elecMr. Curteis objected to the mode which tions of knights of the shire; and to remedy the bill recognised, of taking the valuation that anomaly in the law, he had introduced of land for the purpose of the tax.

a bill which was opposed by an hon, and Mr. G. Bankes entered into a length learned gentleman opposite, on two disened explanation of the clauses of the tinet and separate grounds. The first bill. He pointed out the inequality of the respected the right of the freeholders to vote assessment of the Land-tax; as it existed at elections for their respective counties. at present in England, both as regarded It was urged that though he had come to the Catholic and Protestant land-owners. the conclusion, that they had such right; It had been formed, as it then stood, he was not therefore entitled to call upon in the reign of William 3rd, and had the House to come to the same conclusion continued down to near the end of the without investigation. The second rereign of George 3rd. in the same spected the particular time at which his disproportion. Another grievance under bill was introduced. It was at that time, which the Catholics especially laboured, as he had said before, near the end of the was the necessity of being compelled to parliament, and some counties were already prove the payment of the four shillings engaged in severe election contests. It in the pound upon a rack-rent, before was said, that it would be unfair to pass a

, any relief could be sought in the court of bill at such a time, inasmuch as it would Exchequer; and every succeeding year alter the number of votes in all the conthe evil had increased. The object of the tested counties throughout the kingdom. bill was, not to place the Catholics in a He had yielded to the weight of these two better situation than the Protestants, with arguments, and had deferred his bill to a respect to the Land-tax, nor to throw on future period, determining, however, to Protestants, that portion of the burthen bring it forward again on the earliest opfrom which the Catholics were to be re- portunity. During the interval which had lieved.

elapsed since the dissolution of the last Mr. Fergusson said, that some objec- parliament, he had turned the matter over tions which he had to part of the bill hav- and over again in his mind; and he was ing been removed, he now gave it his now of opinion, that the best shape in hearty support.

which he could bring it again under the The Attorney-general said, he had no notice of parliament would be, by moving for objection to the principle of the bill, but a committee to inquire into the state of the thought the relief ought not to be extend representation in these counties corporate. ed to Roman Catholics who had pur. He thought that such a mode of proceedchased the estates of Protestants, nor ing would obviate the objection which to Protestants who had purchased those had previously been made to his motion, of Roman Catholics; for they bought on the ground that he was taking the them subject to those payments.

House by surprise. His attention had The House then went into the com- been drawn to the subject by a knowmittee.

ledge of the situation in which many of the inhabitants of the town which he had the honour to represent, were placed. King

ton-upon-Hull was a town and county-He must now observe, that in the reof itself

. It was separated from the county maining nine of the nineteen corporate of York, to which it originally belonged, counties which he had mentioned, the by a charter granted to it in the time of freeholders were at present entirely unreHenry 6th. It contained a great number presented; and the question was, first, of freeholders, some of whom were gentle- whether such a state of things ought in men of independent fortune, and others justice and expediency to be continued ? were extensively connected with the town and secondly, whether it existed as of and trade of the port of Hull. Now these right at present? On the first part of the persons had no right, in virtue of their question he would say but little, because freeholds, to vote at all; neither at Hull, he was convinced that even those who at elections of burgesses for that town, nor most strenuously advocated the propriety of at York at elections of knights of the shire things remaining as they now were, and for the county. What was true with re- who from principle were the most inimical spect to the freeholders of the town and to every species of reform, would admit county of Hull, was, he believed true, that it was a gross injustice, that the freewith respect to the freeholders of the cor- holders of those places should not be put porate counties.

The number of such upon the same footing as the freeholders counties was he believed nineteen. He of the county of which those places topowould state their names from a list graphically formed part. In the course of which he had drawn up. He had excluded the inquiries which he had made, he had London from it, because, from its great satisfied himself that the right yet remained commercial importance, and from the in the freeholders of those corporate counvarious privileges which it had received at ties to vote at the elections of knights of different periods of its history, it stood the parent shire. He made that assertion on very different grounds from any of the upon authority of lord Coke; he made it other corporate counties. It was, besides, also upon authority of cases adjudged in a county by prescription, the origin of its that House. He laid it down, upon those separation from the county of Middlesex combined authorities, as undeniable law, not having yet been discovered in any re- that though the king, by his royal prerogacords. Bristol was made a county by a tive, might separate any city or town from charter of Edward 3rd.; York was sepa- the county to which it originally belonged, rated from the county which bore its name and so give them new franchises, it laid by a charter of Richard 2nd.; Lincoln, not within the royal prerogative to take Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and Norwich, by away from the inhabitant freeholders of charter of Henry 4th.; Coventry, Kings that city or town any franchises which ton-upon-Hull, Nottingham, and South- they held previously. He repeated, on the ampton, by charters of Henry 6th.; authority of lord Coke, that such was the Canterbury and Haverfordwest by charters law. In the fourth Institute, p. 46, he used of Edward 4th.; Glocester by charter of this language--" If the king doth newly Richard 3rd.; Chester by charter of incorporate an ancient borough, which Henry 7th.; Exeter by charter of sent burgesses to the parliament, and Henry 8th., Lichfield by charter of Mary; granteth that certain selected burgesses Poole by charter of Elizabeth; and Car- shall make election of the burgesses of parmarthen and Worcester by charters of liament, where all the burgesses elected James 1st. Now, of these places the free- before, this charter taketh not away the holders of Bristol, Haverfordwest, Lich-election of the other burgesses.” Now, what field, Norwich, Nottingham, and Exeter, was true with regard to the electors of a vote for the town and city members in borough, must also be true with regard to conjunction with the burgesses and citizens; the electors of a county. Lord Coke then and the freeholders of Canterbury, Poole, proceeded to state the reason why it was true. Southampton, and ainsty of York, vote at “And so if a city hath power to make ordithe election of knights for the parent nances they cannot make an ordinance that county. He had therefore no complaint to a less number shall elect burgesses for the make with respect to the freeholders in parliament than made the election before ; those places, as his intention was not to for free elections of members of the high give to any parties a double right, but only court of parliament are probono publico, and to secure to those who had it not, a single not to be compared to other cases of elecright of voting in virtue of their freeholds. tions of mayors, bailiffs, &c. of corpora

а

tions, &c.” Lord Coke then said, that if there, in matters concerning only themthe king could not take away a franchise, selves and their own government, rights, neither could he exempt from a liability. and privileges, yet it cannot alter and Now, the exercise of the elective franchise abridge the general freedom and form of was a liability to which every freeholder elections for burgesses to the parliament, was exposed; it was a duty thrown on wherein, as aforesaid, the commonwealth him by the constitution, from which, in is interested.” He would desire hon. case of emergency, the law itself would members to draw, if they could, a distincnot allow him to shrink. On this point, the tion between the cases of these burgesses, language of lord Coke was most explicit: and that of the unrepresented freeholders _"The king cannot grant a charter of in separate corporate counties. If the exemption to any man to be freed from grant of the Crown could not alter and the election of knight, citizen, or burgesse abridge the general freedom and form of of the parliament, (as he may do of some elections for burgesses to the parliament, inferior office or places) because the elec- pari ratione it could not limit the right of tio of them ought to be free, and his the freeholders to vote at elections for attendance is for the service of the whole knights of the shire. Such was the result of realme, and for the benefit of the king his inquiry into this subject: he had himself and his people, and the whole common- taken considerable pains in investigating wealth hath an interest therein.”—He it; but he should be unjust to Mr. Uvetherefore contended, on the best authority, dale Corbett, if he did not acknowledge

,

, that though the king might separate a that he had found, in his very excellent city or town from the county by royal work on the elective franchise, nearly grant, he could not by that grant take every thing which he wanted. He proaway from the inhabitants any immunities posed, therefore, the appointment of a which they had previously possessed. Be-committee, to inquire into the state of the

. sides lord Coke, there were other authori- elective franchise in separate counties, ties still more binding. The law had been with the view of relieving freeholders from decided by an election committee of the the injuries which they sustained under the House, in a case which was to be found present circumstances. He trusted the in Glanville's Reports, p. 54. It appeared House would not be alarmed at this infrom the statement of that learned reporter, quiry, as being connected with the questhat in the time of James 1st. a question tion of reform. This was not of a character had arisen as to the right of election for the to frighten even the most timorous oppoborough of Chippenham. In ancient nent of reform. There was nothing times all the burgesses in that borough sweeping or dangerous about it, as it only shared in the elective franchise; but contemplated the removal of an admitted queen Mary, who gave a charter to that evil existing in particular places; and it borough, confined the possession of it to a had been always stated by those who were select number. The legality of that limi- opposed to the general question of reform, tation came to be argued before a commit- that where a blot or blemish could be tee of the House, and he would read one pointed out, they would assist in applying sentence which deserved their particular a particular remedy to the particular attention: it was as follows.—“Secondly, grievance. The hon. gentleman conit was conceived by the committee, and cluded by moving, “That a select comso reported to the House and there resolved, mittee be appointed to inquire into the that the said charter of queen Mary, did state of the Elective Franchise, in the sevenot, nor could alter the form and right of ral districts and cities corporate within election for burgesses to the parliament England and Wales." within the said borough from the course Mr. F. Lewis began by remarking, that there before, time out of mind, held; so the hon. gentleman had stated, that on as if, before this said charter, all the bur- the previous occasion when he had brought gesses and inhabitants called freemen, or this question before parliament, he had any other larger number of qualified per- withdrawn it at his (Mr. F.L.'s)suggestion. sons, had already used and ought of right He now rose to offer another suggestion to make the election, then the charter, to the hon. gentleman, which was, that he although it may incorporate this town, should change course he was followwhich was not incorporate before, or may ing, and, instead of asking for a committee alter the name or form of the corporation of inquiry, at once bring in a bill. In his

a