415 even for the well being and long continuance of the majority itself. It was necessary to keep them in healthful action, and to prevent them from falling to pieces by their own weight. Under the predominance of what political party the proposed constitution was, in all probability, to be carried into effect, it was not, perhaps, difficult to foresee, under any arrangement of our electoral districts whatever; but he submitted it to the good sense of gentlemen, whether it was advisable to leave this power of districting the state open to the abuse of any party whatever, when it was not called for by any considerations of necessity or utility. Without entering more at large into the question at present, he would submit the amendment to the discretion of the committee, which was to strike out the word "seventeen" in the first line, and to insert "thirty-two," and after the word "districts," in the fourth line, insert the following: "That each district shall elect one senator, and shall be composed of contigu ous territory, shall conform as near as may be to county lines, and be laid off, and the senators apportioned by the present legislsture at their next session according to the number of free inhabitants, and excluding aliens, persons of colour not taxed, paupers and convicts, in each district; which apportionment shall continue until a census of the inhabitants of the state shall be taken as hereinafter directed." COL. YOUNG remarked, that he was in favour of the greatest number of senatorial districts that could be formed without breaking up counties; but he was convinced that it was inexpedient to dissolve and disunite those associations. It had been said yesterday, by two honourable gentlemen, that the towns in Dutchess were anxious for a divorce from Columbia, whilst an honourable gentleman from the latter county (Mr. Van Ness) had replied that the wish was reciprocated. This convinced him that it was expedient to preserve the counties entire. MR. E. WILLIAMS said, there had been a general expression in favour of having single districts, if that object could be effected without disturbing the lines of counties. The honourable Chairman had been expressing himself in But he favour of such an arrangement, if the plan could be devised for doing so, without dividing and cutting up counties, or making them too unequal. has told us that this cannot be done; and another gentleman had assured them, thata division of the state into thirty-two districts, would require the cutting up of thirty counties. Mr. W. said he had carefully examined this subject, and had made what he believed to be an accurate calculation; and he had found that single districts, with the exception of the city of New-York, might be made by dividing only three counties. By the calculation he had made, there would be one senator for every 45,335 souls, excluding those which it had been determined by a previous vote, were not to be counted. Suffolk and Queens together, he said, contained about the requisite number for one senator; and he would make them one district. He would unite the city of New-York and the counties of Kings and Richmond, into one district, and give them three senators: there was such a close and constant intercourse between these places, that the inhabitants were very generally acquaintWestchester and Putnam one; Rockland and Orange ed with each other. one. Here, he said, would be a surplus of 10,000; and if that was thought too great, they might annex a few towns of Orange, to Ulster and Sullivan, as they would fall about 3000 short of the number required for one member, Dutchess Columbia a little short. Greene and Delaware more than enough for one. one; Otsego one; Albany one; Schoharie and Schenectady one; Saratoga one; Montgomery one; Warren, Clinton and Franklin one; Rensselaer one; Washington one: St. Lawrence and Jefferson one; Lewis and Herkimer one; Oneida would have a large surplus, but it was better to let large counties have but one, though they might have an excess; their representation in the other house, would make up for the deficiency in the senate. Or, if thought best, a few of the towns of Oneida, might be added to Herkimer. Oswego one; Onondaga one; Chenango and Broome one; Cortland and Tioga one; Cayuga one; Seneca and Tompkins one; Steuben, Allegany, and Cattaragus one; Ontario one; here, too, there would be a large surplus; and a few towns might be taken from this county and added to an adjoining district. Livingston and Monroe one; Genesee one; and Niagara. Erie, and Chautauque one. Madison and 416 The districts, he admitted, would not be exactly equal; but the difference between any two, would not be greater than would be the case, by adopting the report of the committee. And he would beg leave to call the attention of the honourable Chairman of the select committee, (Mr. King) to this subject; he could, he well knew, enforce more strongly and clearly than himself, the necessity of having small districts, that the electors and the elected might know each other; that the electors might know the moral and religious character of of those for whom they voted. The following is the table and estimates submitted by Mr. Williams. Single districts, contrasted with the seventeen districts, as reported by the select Committee Free white inhabitants in this state, 1,332,744 Deduct aliens, 15,101 1,317,643 Divided by thirty-two, the whole number of senators, gives 41,176 to each. The population of each county, as hereinafter expressed, is the entire number of free whites, excepting only foreigners not naturalized. DOUBLE DISTRICTS, Proposed by the Select Committee, (of which Mr. King was Chairman) in their report. 1st. district, Suffolk. 22,429, Queens, 18,260, Kings, 9,118, Westchester, 30, 525 80,332 Two senators require 82,352; minus 2,020 2d. district, New-York, 107,430, Richmond, 112,950 5520 Three senators require 123,528; minus 10,578 3rd. district, Rockland, 8,246, Orange, 38,944, Ulster, 28,709, Sullivan, 8,729, 84,628 Two senators require 82,352; plus 2,276 4th. district, Putnam, 11,014, Dutchess, 43,910, Columbia, 36, 393, 91,307, Two senators require 82,352; plus 8,955. 5th, district, Greene, 22,144, Delaware, 25,891, Otsego, 44,284, 92,319 Two senators require 82,352; plus 9,967 Two senators require 82,352; minus 11,179 558, Hamilton, 1,243, Warren, 9,327, 82,295 Two senators require 82,352: minus 57 38, 194 77,038 Two senators require 82,352; minus 4,138 9th. district, Essex, 12,591, Clinton, 11,911, Franklin, 4,244, St. Lawrence, 15,025, plus 2,595 43,771 10th. district, Lewis, 9,060, Jefferson, 32,025, 41 085; minus 91 11th. district, Herkimer, 30,432, Oncida, 49, 675 80,107 Two senators require 82,352: minus 2,245 85,274 Two senators require 82,352; plus 2,922 Two senators require 82,352; minus 3,97! 82,354 Two senators require 82,252; plus 2 91,880 Two senators require 82.352; plus 9,528 SINGLE DISTRICTS, Proposed by Mr. Williams, and contrasted with the above. 1 st. district, Suffolk 22,429, Queens 18,260-40, 689; minus 1,587. 2d. district, Kings 9,118, New-York 107,430. 122,058 Richmond 5,520 Three senators require 123,528 minus 1,460 3d. district, Westchester 30,525, Putnam 11,014 -41,539, plus 363; or, Westchester 30,525, Rockland 8,246-38,871; minus 2,405. or, 4th. district Orange alone 38,943; minus 2,232; Orange 38,944, Rockland 8,246-47,190; plus 6,914. 5th. district, Ulster 23,709, Sullivan 8.729-37,438; minus 3,738. 6th. district, Dutchess alone 43,910; plus 1,734. 7th. district, Columbia alone 36 383; minus 4,798. 8th district, Greene 22,144, Delaware 25,991; plus 6,859. 9th. district, Otsego 44,284; plus 3,108. 10th. district, Albany 36,524; minus 4,652. 11th. district, Schenectady 12,126, Schoharie 22,523; minus 6,527. 12th. district, Saratoga alone 35,167; minus 6,006; or, Saratoga 35,167, Warren 9,327; plus 3,318. 13th. district, Montgomery 36,558, Hamilton 1,243-37,801; minus 3,375. 14th. district, Rensselaer alone 38,844; minus 2,332. 15th district, Washington alone 38,198; minus 2,982. 16th. district, the same as ninth. 17th district, the same as tenth. 18th district, Herkimer, 30,432: minus 10,744. 19th district, Oneida, alone 49,675; plus 7,499, 20th. district, Madison, 31,919, Oswego, 12,211; plus 2,984 21st, district, Onondaga, 41,114; minus 62 22d. district, Chenango, 31,007; Cortland 16, 435: plus 5,276; or Chenango, 31,007, Broome, 14,204'; plus 4,035 23rd district, Broome, 14,204, Tioga, 16,733, 31,935 minus 9,241; or 85,048 Two senators require 82,352; plus 2,695 minus 1,696 39,480, 33,166 24th. district, Cayuga,38.447 minus 2,729 25th. district, Seneca, 23,318, Tompkins, 20, 589-43,907 plus 1,731. 26th. district, Ontario, 60,951: plus 18,775. 27th. district, Steuben 21,658, Allegany 9,271, Cattaraugus 4034-35,213; minus 6163, 28th district, Monroe 26.695, Livingston, 18, 355-46,050: plus 3,847. 29th. district, Genesee 39,998; minus 1178, 30th district, Niagara and Erie 22,843, Chautane 12,553-35,395; minus 5780. The usual hour of adjournment having arrived, the committee rose, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. In Convention, MR. SPENCER asked leave of absence for a fortnight for himself and Messrs. Van Ness and Platt, which was granted, nem con, and the Convention adjourned. SATURDAY, OCTOBER 13, 1821. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. DE WITT. The minutes of yesterday read and ap proved. MR. P. R. LIVINGSTON, after some remarks on questions of order, and the unnecesary waste of time, which had already taken place, offered the following resolution: Resolved, by this Convention, that no member be permitted to speak more than twice, on the same question, when in committee of the whole. The resolution was opposed by Mr. Young. Adopted. MR. RADCLIFF, from the committee on the parts of the constitution, not referred to any particular committee, reported in part as follows: I. That the proceeds of all the lands belonging to this state, not otherwise ap. propriated, which shall hereafter be sold or disposed of, under the authority of the legislature, together with the fund, denominated the common school fund, shall constitute and remain a perpetual fund, the interest of which, shall be inviolably appropriated and applied to the support of common schools, throughout this state. II. That no lottery shall hereafter be authorised in this state: and the legisla ture shall pass laws, to prevent the sale of all lottery tickets, within this state, except in lotteries already provided for by them. III. That the thirtieth article of the constitution of this state, ought to be abol ished. IV. That the fortieth article of the constitution, ought also to be abolished; and that instead thereof, the following be adopted. The militia of this state, shall, at all times hereafter, be armed and disciplin. ed, and in readiness for service; but that all persons belonging to any sect or de nomination, holding it unlawful to bear arms, be excused therefrom, and to pay to the state, such sums of money, in lieu of their personal service, as the same shall be worth." V. That the legislature shall not pass any laws, by which any person shall be compelled to attend upon, or support any place of public worship; or to maintain any ministry against his consent; or which shall, in any manner, restrain the free exercise of religious profession or worship. VI. That no new county shall be erected or established, which shall reduce the county or counties, from which it may be taken, or either of them, to less than the contents of square miles; nor shall any new county be established of less contents. VII. The committee have considered the resolution of the honourable the convention, of the 10th instant, by which it was referred to them to report what provision, if any, is proper to be adopted, in relation to the appointment of senators of this state, in the senate of the United States, and are of opinion, that the mode of appointing the said senators, is prescribed by the constitution of the United States, and depends on the just construction thereof: That the constitution of the Unit. ed States, and the true construction of its provisions in relation thereto, must control this question, and that therefore it would be useless and unavailing, to make any provision on the subject. On motion of Mr. Van Buren, the report was referred to the committee of the whole, when on the legislative department, and ordered to be printed.. • Mode of appointment of delegates to the general congress. THE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention then resolved itself into a Committee of the whole on the unfinished business of yesterday, (the legislative department.) Mr. Van Buren in the chair. The Chairman stated the question before the committee to be on the proposition of Mr. Bacon, for dividing the state into thirty-two senate districts. MR. KING presented the following statement, shewing the result of dividing the state into thirty-two senatorial districts, of equal numbers and contiguous territory: 2d district, Kings 9118, Richmond 5520, part of New York 26,438 41,176 3d district, Part of New-York 41,176 4th district, Part of New-York 39,816 5th district, Westchester 30,525, Putnam 11,014 41,539 6th district, Part of Dutchess 41,176 7th district, Part of Duchess 2734, Columbia 36,383, part of Rensselaer 2059 41,176 8th district, Part of Rensselaer 36,825, part of Washington 4351 41,176 9th district, Part of Washington 33, 843, part of Warren 7127 41,170 17th district, Delaware, 17,325, Otsego, 23,851 41,176 18th district, Otsego, 20,433, Chenango, 20,743 41,176 19th district, Chenango, 10,264 Broome, 14,204, Cortland, 16,435 40,903 20th district, Herkimer, 30,432, Oneida, 10,744 41,176 21st district, Oneida, 24,810, Madison, 16,366 41,176 22d district, St. Lawrence, 15,025, Jefferson, 26,151 41,176 23d district, Jefferson, 5,884, Lewis, 9,060, Oswego, 12,211. Oneida, 14,021 41,176 24th district, Madison, 15,503, Onondaga, 25,583, 41,176 25th district, Onondaga, 15,531, Cayu 25,645 41,176 10th district, Warren 2000, Essex 12, 591, Clinton 11,011, Franklin 4244, Hamilton 1243, part of Saratoga 10,100ga, 41,189 11th district, Part of Saratoga 25,067, part of Montgomery 16,109 41,176 12th district, Part of Montgomery 20, 436, par of Scholiarie 20,637 41,176 13th district, Schoharie 1886, Schenectady, 12,126, part of Albany 27, 164 41,176 14th district, Albany, 9,360, Greene, 22,144, part of Ulster, 9,672 41,176 15th district, Ulster, 19,037, Orange, 6,014, Sullivan, 8,559, Delaware, 7,556 41,176 16th district, Rockland, 8,246, Orange, 32,930 41,176 26th district, Cayuga, 12,802, Seneca, 23,318, Tompkins, 5,056 41,176 27th district, Tompkins, 15,533, Tioga, 16,776, Steuben, 8,867 41,176 roe, 21,256 28th district, Steuben, 12,791, Ailegany, 9,271, Livingston, 18,400 40,462 29th district, Ontario, 41,176 30th district, Ontario, 19,924, Mon41,176 31st district, Monroe, 5,504, Genesee, 35,672 41,175 32d district, Genesee, 4,428, Niagara, and Erie, 22,843, Chautauque, 12,555, Cattaragus, 4,084 43,810 MR. TOMPKINS was opposed to incorporating any specific regulation in the constitution on this subject. He would fix the general principle, and leave the rest to the legislature. His plan was to insert in the constitution a clause making a provision, that there should not be less than eight districts, nor more than thirty-two senators, leaving the number of districts and the apportionment to the legislature. MR. KING objected both to the proposition of Mr. Bacon and of Mr. Tompkins. The former would be attended with many difficulties, and the latter appeared impracticable, since the constitution must go into operation before the legislature under it could be elected He thought, also, that it would lead to party contests in the legislature. On the whole, he believed the report of the committee liable to as few objections as any plan that had been submitted. MR. TOMPKINS disclaimed being influenced by party views, or by any wish to treat the committee with disrespect. GEN. TALLMADGE proposed to one the subject. He wished to submit a proposition, after the amend tleman from lumbia, [see pro seedings of yesterday,] was la MR. VAN VECHTEN offered the following amendment :-- "That the state shall he divided into thirty-two senatorial districts, to be composed of contiguous territory, and that one senator shall be elected in each district; Provided that it shall be competent for the legislature, in case it shall be deemed expedient to form the city and county of New-York, and the counties of Kings and Richmond, into one district, for the purpose of electing two senators, to reduce the number of said districts to thirty-one, and to authorise the election of two senators in the said district, to be composed of the city and county of NewYork, and the counties of Kings and Richmond.” MR. E. WILLIAMS made a few remarks in reply to the objections offered by the gentleman from Queens. The question on Mr. Tallmadge's motion for postponing the 2d section of the report with the amendments of Messrs. Williams, Bacon, and Van Vecten till Monday, was taken and carried. MR. TOMPKINS wished the committee might rise and report, for the purpose of directing the amendments to be printed. Before the motion was put, GEN. TALLMADGE offered the following resolutions. Resolved, That the state shall be divided into eight districts, to be denominated senate districts-and that the thirty-two senators be elected in the said districts, in equal proportions, that the said districts be contiguous in territory; and as nearly as may be equal in population, excluding aliens, persons of colour not taxed, paupers, and convicts. Resolved, That it be referred to a select committee, to report a division of the state into eight senatorial districts, upon the principles contained in the preceding resolution, and that they report to the Convention. MR. TOMPKINS offered the following amendment. That the state shall be divided into as many districts as the legislature shall direct, not less than eight, and that thirty-two senators shall be elected in said districts. The committee then rose and reported. On motion of M. SHARPE, ordered that the several propositions be printed. The Convention then re-resolved itself into a committee of the whole on the unfinished business of yesterday-Mr. Van Buren in the chair. The third section was read, and postponed till Monday. The fourth section was then read. MR. WHEATON stated that though he had not the honour to be a member of the select committee who reported this clause, yet he understood that it was intended to determine a doubt which had sometimes arisen, whether a money bill could originate or be amended in the senate. By the ninth article of the constitution of 1777, the house of assembly was to enjoy the same privileges, and proceed in doing business in the same manner as the assemblies of the colony of New-York had formerly done. Under the colonial government, the council was appointed by the crown, and as the colonial legislature was constructed on the model of parliament, no money bill could originate or be amended except in the assembly, the members of which were the immediate representatives of the people. By the constitution of parliament, as it had stood ever since the knights and burgesses began to sit in a separate house, the commons had uniformly asserted their exclusive right to originate money bills, and had But as our leuniformly resisted the right of the lords even to amend them. gislature was constituted, there was no reason why any doubt should be entertained whether the senate could originate or amend such bills. Both houses were the immediate representatives of the people, and both might be considered as equally representing the taxable property of the country. The analogy of the United States' constitution did not apply, because in that government representatives and direct taxes were to be apportioned among the several states |