With respect to the assembly, he could not see any good reason for having the number increasing. There was a time when it was proper-when the state was in some parts a wilderness. The country is now settled, and there will be no new district of country to be represented; the only difference that will occur, is in the increase of population. He was of the opinion that one hundred and forty-four was a very good number for the assembly. It would answer all the beneficial purposes of a representative government. One hundred and forty-four in the assembly, with thirty-six in the senate, would be as four to one, which had been considered a very just proportion.

He did not know that there was any particular magic in the number 12, that should induce him to take a gross for the assembly, and three dozen for the senate, having 12 senatorial districts; but it was a number that had been highly respected before the publication of the new system of theology which had been handed into the Convention yesterday. (Magic Harmonicus.)

There were provisions in the amendment which he offered, by which each county in the state would be represented in the assembly: and that no two counties should be united for electioneering purposes. There have been political parties in our legislature, and there will be again; I would put it out of their power to sever counties or to unite them for political purposes, when their interests for civil purposes are not at all connected. There is a provision that no county shall have more than six members; if their population shall entitle them to more than six, let them be divided for the purpose of election. The injury of a large delegation from one county had been forcibly felt. At one time the city of New-York sent thirteen members-for the last seven years, eleven. There was a time when three or four hundred votes in that city changed the political character of the state, by throwing the majority into the assembly, and the appointing power into the hands of peace party men, to the great annoyance of the patriotic part of the community.

The election in the city of New-York, in 1800, changed the president of the United States-but should there be a change the other way, even you, Mr. Chairman, (Mr. V. B.) would deplore the event.

There was another objection to so great a representation from one county, and that was with regard to the fractions, which in smaller counties, were thrown away; but in New-York procured them an additional member---instead of eleven members, they were justly entitled to but ten. Besides all this, their all coming from the same place, with the same interests and same views, carries irresistible force in the pursuit of a favourite object. The representation from New-York could effect great changes in the political aspect of the state, all acting in concert-eleven in number would make a difference of twentytwo by going from one side to the other.

There is a provision in my amendment inhibiting the erection of new counties, unless they have a population sufficiently large. As for those that are already erected, let them remain; but hereafter let no county be erected until it is entitled to one member in the assembly. Let the fact be ascertained that they have one one hundred and forty-fourth part of the electors in the state before they are set off.

MR. BRIGGS was pleased with the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware, but he should move to strike out "forty-four," making the number of members of assembly one hundred, which he thought sufficient for all useful pur

poses.

GEN. ROOT was willing his amendment should be read in blank.

GEN, TALLMADCE wished the subject might be divided, and the senate taken last.

MR. EDWARDS moved, that the further consideration of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Delaware be postponed till to-morrow. We had, in too many instances, lost sight of the reports of the select committees, which had been digested with great labour and care, and wasted much time on crude and indigested amendments.

GEN. ROOT replied to the gentleman from New-York, (Mr. Edwards,) and remarked that if the amendment were postponed, the two first sections would also be postponed.

MR. EDWARDS rejoined, and spoke for some time on the remarks that had fallen from the gentleman from Delaware.

GEN. TALLMADGE was opposed to the postponement. It was unfair to refuse any member an opportunity of offering an amendment.

GEN. ROOT again spoke against postponing his amendment.

MR. BURROUGHS said that a postponement would amount to a rejection of the amendment.

MR. KING could see no benefit to be derived from postponing till to-morrow. He agreed with the gentleman from Delaware, that if the amendment were postponed, the two sections of the report must also be postponed.

MR. EDWARDS said he was willing to relieve the committee from any embarrassment on the subject of order ;-and thereupon withdrew his motion for postponement.

MR. KING remarked, that in making the apportionment, the select committee did not include foreigners nor slaves. It was made upon the basis of free male citizens. With regard to the districts, the committee would have preferred to make as many as there were senators, if they could have found it to be practicable without dividing counties. As the inhabitants of counties were associated and brought together for various purposes, they were better acquainted with each other than they could be with persons of an adjoining county, even if less remote in point of distance. This fact was observable in the intercourse and communication between towns. The committee had therefore thought it inexpedient to break in upon the counties, and had adjusted the ratio of population as well as they could consistently with that principle. If a better plan could be devised, the committee would not pertinaciously adhere to their own. Mr. K. was disposed to leave as much of the old constitution as they could, and to destroy no part of it without good and substantial reasons. He thought the plan of dividing the state into twelve districts would be found to be inconvenient. The larger the districts, the more room there would be for the operations of intrigue. The candidates for office were less known by their constituents, who were therefore less able to judge of their comparative merits. This evil had been felt in the great western district.

The senate, at present organized, was large enough for all the purposes of legislation and appointment, so far as the appointing power is committed to them; and certainly large enough for the exercise of its judicial powers. Four years gives more strength to that body, than a shorter term, and although there was perhaps no rule or standard by which to judge with exactness, yet perhaps we could not resort to a safer guide than experience. The constitution of the United States fixed the duration of that senate at six years. No inconvenience was known to have resulted from that more protracted period. Why then alter it to three? He thought that body ought not to be further weakened by shortening the term of office.

GEN. TALLMADGE had been in favour of making the number of districts equal to the number of senators; but he was aware of the difficulties which that project presented, He was therefore in favour of dividing the state into eight senatorial districts, with four senators from each. A great object was to have the power of the elected return by periodical rotation to the people. But he would preserve the old constitutional term of four years. It was important to give stability to that body. But he was not satisfied with the apportionment that the committee had made. The district comprising Putnam, Dutchess, and Columbia, had a population of 96,000, and were to elect two senators, whilst Rensselaer and Washington, with a population of only 78,000 were to elect the same number. It was too unequal in its operation, and he could not vote in its favour.

MR. KING made a few remarks in reply, when

MR. BACON proposed to have thirty-two districts, with one senator from

each.

COL. YOUNG was opposed to the motion, and was in favour of acting on the report of the committee. He spoke at some length on the original report and the amendment.

MR. SHARPE foresaw that we should soon be involved in the same difficulties

we had experienced on former occasions, by deserting original reports, and acting on amendments. He hoped we should adhere to the report, and build upon it.

GEN. ROOT again explained and urged his amendment, and spoke in reply to the gentleman who preceded him in the debate.

JUDGE PLATT thought we should waste much time by wandering from the report of the committee, and acting on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Delaware. He then read in his place, and offered the following re

solutions :

Resolved, That the senate shall cons ist of 32 members, to be elected for the term of four years; that the state be divided into 32 districts, to the end that one senator be elected in each district; and that the first apportionment be made according to the last census of free persons under the laws of the United States:

and

Resolved further, That after the first election, the senators shall be apport ion ed according to the electors only, and not according to the number of free inhabi

tants.

Resolved, That it ought to be referred to the same select committee to settle and report the details upon the principles above stated.

JUDGE VAN NESs observed, that the Convention had now approached another important part of its business, and he was unable to discover a single consideration that should divert their minds from such a plan as might best answer the purposes of the community.

The number of senators specified in the constitution was, it is true, apportioned according to the counties; but this arose from the necessity of the case. Our fathers were then organizing a new government, and no census had been taken of the people on which an apportionment could rest. The case was otherwise at present The assembly was then apportioned among the electors-the senate among the freeholders. The latter distinction has now been exploded, and the electoral census was made the basis of apportionment. Mr. V. N. was aware that the principle now contended for, would diminish the representation of the city of New-York; and a peculiar difficulty also arose from the circumstance, that by the last census, no electoral discrimination was made, as relating to militiamen, and highway labourers, who are now let in to vote. The census was taken upon the priociples of the constitution as it then stood. How, then, could we arrive at a just apportionment in relation to that class of voters? He thought there was a difficulty, which it was not easy to avoid, by adopting either the report of the select committee, or the amendment of the gentleman from Delaware. Notwithstanding the profound respect which he entertained for that committee, and for the chairman of it, he could not but think that the report they had made was unjust, and repugnant to public opinion. He was not opposed to the first section of the report; but in relation to the second, he thought it was too unequal in its operation to be entitled to the sanction of the committee. Mr. V. N. then entered upon a detailed argument to shew the inconvenience, inequality, and consequent injustice of the apportionment as reported by the select committee. He said a great object which all were desirous to attain, was to bring home to the people a personal knowledge of the candidate who was to represent them, and the smaller the district, the more perfect would that knowledge be. He thought there was nothing of importance to be gained in that respect by the proposal of the honourable gentleman from Dutchess, (Mr. Tallmadge,) of dividing the state into eight districts. It might about as well remain at four as eight, as it respected the personal acquaintance which the constituent might be supposed to possess with his representative. Mr. V. N. was, therefore, in favour of dividing the state into thirty-two senatorial districts. It would have, he said, the advantage, among others, of permanency-and would be altered but little from one census to another. He was aware that there were some well founded objections to this mode; but he would defy human wisdom to point out a mode to which there would not be well founded objections. The great object was to avail curselves of that which combines the greatest cxcc!

tencies, with the fewest defects. He thought there was no great practical benefit to be derived from an annual election, as some gentlemen seemed to suppose. The only important purpose it could serve, would be annually to infuse a portion of the existing public feeling into that body. But if public sentiment was strongly drawn to a particular object, it would diffuse itself throughout the state. It would not be confined to a local section, but would be conveyed to the destined port, as well through one channel as another.

It had been said that a minuter division than seventeen districts, would require a division of counties. In the first place, he doubted the fact. But admitting it were so, he would ask whether an arbitrary line would prevent people from knowing each other? He was disposed always to unite contiguous territory-but was it not a fact, that persons residing near a county line were often better acquainted with the inhabitants of the adjoining county than with their own? It was the commercial mart, not the divisional county line, that confined or extended their acquaintance and communication. Mr. V. N. then endeavoured to shew by a computation, that fewer fractions and inequalities would result from a partition into thirty-two districts than by any other division that could be made. He also adverted to the congressional districts, which were made up of integral counties and parts of adjoining counties, and particularly referred to that of Columbia, in which three towns from the county of Dutchess were included. But no inconvenience, he observed, had resulted from that association. So, also, the first and second wards in the city of New-York had been added to Long-Island, and no complaints had been heard of its injurious consequences. Indeed, it might in its operation lead to a more enlarged and generous sympathy between those who had been previously disconnected, and tend to repress any clanish spirit that might pervade a particular territory. He was, therefore, in favour of dividing the state into thirty-two senatorial districts, and also into as many assembly districts as there were members in that body; but as it was inexpedient for the Convention to enter into details, and as they had not the proper and necessary evidence before them, he was in favour of declaring merely the number of the districts that should be made, and leave its detailed apportionment to the future disposal of the legislature.

MR. TOMPKINS enquired of the chair whether it would now be in order to offer an amendment?

The Chairman, remarked that if the amendment related to senatorial districts, it would not be in order.

MR. TOMPKINS observed that he had prepared an amendment, which coincided with the views of the gentleman from Columbia, (Mr. Van Ness.) He read a part of his plan, which proposed to divide the state into thirty-two districts, and that the basis of apportionment should be a census, to be taken in 1823. The Chairman said that the proposition was not in order.

MR. KING thought the plan of the gentleman from Richmond (Mr. Tompkins) impracticable, since the apportionment must be made before the census would be taken. He also adverted to another difficulty that would arise from the division of counties, which was, that no designation had been made in the late census of the respective towns.

MR. N. WILLIAMS said, he did not intend to enter very minutely into the subject before the committee; but would take the liberty of making a few remarks, expressive of his views, which should not detain the committee long. With respect to the difficulties anticipated, in dividing the state into districts, he was confident that more had been feared than would be realised. Many of the counties contained about the number of inhabitants which would entitle them to a senator, others might be united without dividing them into towns, so as to have but small fractions; and in cases, where it was necessary even to divide counties; he did not imagine any great inconvenience would result, as the territory would be contiguous, and of course the manners, habits, and interest of the inhabitants nearly the same.

Could the plan be effected, he should prefer having as many districts as there are senators; as the greatest evil of a representative government like ours, was the inconvenience of having the candidate for office so far removed from many of his constituents. The only remedy for this evil, was to have the districts

404

He

small if, however, the plan which he had mentioned, could not be adopted, he should prefer the proposition of the gentleman from Dutchess, to that of the gentleman from Delaware, for this reason, it would preserve the period of service at four years, which he considered none too long. He would rather see the time increased than diminished, and upon this plan each district might annually send a new member, which he considered essential and important. was pleased with the idea of bringing home to the people the candidates who were to receive their suffrage, and with affording them an opportunity of annually expressing their sentiments to the senate, through the medium of a fresh representative. Upon the plan proposed by the gentleman from Delaware, there would probably be some difficulty in reducing the present incumbents. If it was done by lot, they might all fall in one part of the country, which would leave a portion of the state unrepresented.

One important objection to the report of the committee was, that it would not provide for an annual expression of the public voice, in the different districts in the state. By the plan proposed by the gentleman from Dutchess, that evil would not exist. The difference in the size of the districts could not make a material difference, whether the plan of the gentleman from Delaware or that of the gentleman from Dutchess, was adopted.

He did not apprehend so much difficulty in applying any plan to the state generally, or the western part particularly, as to the great and commercial city of New-York, which would, undoubtedly before many years contain half a million of inhabitants. With respect to that city, there did appear to be considerable difficulty in the adoption of any plan; but he hoped they should be able in the end to adopt some method, which would render the senate a stable and wise body; as on it depended, in his estimation, the welfare and prosperity of the state, so far as legislation could conduce to that end.

MR. DUER would make but few remarks, and confine them to a single point, which related to the division of the state into thirty-two senatorial districts. He was very certain that whether the number of thirty-two or thirty-six were adopted for the number of the senate, it would be impossible, upon that principle, to avoid breaking in upon the unity of the counties. If any gentleman could doubt of this fact, he would discover, by reference to the census, that it could not be accomplished without dividing more than thirty It would also be worth consideration, that the voice of counties in this state. the fractional part of one county annexed to another would be entirely lost and disregarded. Such had been the fact in relation to the very instance to which the gentleman from Columbia, (Judge Van Ness) had adverted. The annexa, tion of those towns might be very agreeable to the people of Columbia, but was by no means satisfactory to the three towns of Dutchess. Their voice was ton feeble to be heard. He thought gentlemen ought not to call on the committee to reject the plan'contained in the report, merely on the ground that it contained objectionable features, until they had presented a plan liable to fewer objec tions in its various parts, and susceptible of clear and unquestioned practicability.

COL. YOUNG said, that the facts stated by the chairman of the select committee (Mr. King) convinced him, that it would be impracticable to divide the state into thirty-two districts.

MR. P. R. LIVINGSTON thought that there had been enough disclosed to enable the Convention to act understandingly on the motion of the honourable gentleman from Delaware, (Mr. Root.) It had been boldly stated by the gentleman from Columbia, (Mr. Van Ness,) that no complaint had been made of the annexation of the three towns in Dutchess to the county of Columbia, in the formation of a congressional district. The allusion had been unfortunate. If a marriage had ever taken place in which there had not been a consent of parties, and where a divorce was devoutly wished for by the fairer, but weaker party, it was in the case to which the honourable gentleman had referred. Mr. L would not at that time enter into an argument on the main question, but moved that the two first sections of the report of the select committee, together with the amendment proposed by the honourable gentleman from Delaware, be post poned until to-morrow.