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A. If I had a child dying without baptism, I should be doubtful of its salvation. U. We think, my lord, that it is not the want of baptism, but the contempt of it, and that not of his friends, but the person himself, that doth condemn. Yet we believe and teach the lawfulness and necessity of childrens' baptism, and that it ought to be performed by ministers. A. The book doth not speak of women; and it is called private because of the place, not the persons. U. The circumstances of it can admit of no other sense. For it may be administered when there is not time to say the Lord's prayer. A. There may not be so much time after the minister is come. U. We know that the baptism of a certain nobleman by the midwife was allowed and defended by the Book of Common Prayer. A. You should have complained of this abuse, that the parties might have been punished. U. Your lordship knoweth the opinion of most persons upon this point, and that they practise accordingly. A. It is not the fault of the book, if in this case it be misunderstood. U. The practice was condemned in the convocation, when your lordship was prolocutor. - A. True: and you are to take away the superstition attached to it, by preaching against it.—Have you any other thing to mention ? - U. We object against private communion. A. Strange, indeed : Do you not think it lawful for two to communicate alone If there were only two persons together in time of persecution, or in a wilderness, or in the world, would you have them not to communicate 2 Such communion, if the church were there, would not be private. But we live in a time of gospel light and peace; therefore, the communion which your lordship defendeth, savours too much of the popish housel. A. The minister is not compelled to do it, but only suffered if he will. U. But if we subscribe, we must subscribe unto this as a convenient order appointed by the book. We have many other things; but we fear to be tedious. There are many others who are suspended, and are waiting your lordship's pleasure. - A. Why did they not all come : I would have endea
voured to satisfy them. You seem to be sober and discreet men. I would not have you depend on any vain fancies; but be ruled and enjoy your places, which, without this subscription, you shall not hold. U. If our ministry have been useful to souls, we thank God for it; and we desire to keep our places, if it may be done with peace of conscience. Hely. If we may subscribe with a good conscience, it is what we desire. But, my lord, if we subscribe to the book, do we not subscribe to the translation of the Bible, which the book appointeth to be read 2 That translation is faulty and incorrect in many places. A. Mention some place. H. In the Psalms." The first day's conference thus broke off; but by order of the archbishop, they all attended the next morning; when they appeared before the archbishop, the bishops of London, Salisbury, and Rochester, and the dean of Westminster. The archbishop having rehearsed the substance of what had passed the preceding day, with some enlargement upon the devil's loving women, the Bishop of London spoke as follows: Bishop. If you had read either divinity or philosophy, it would not be strange to you that the devil should love WOmen. U. My lord, we have not learned any such divinity. A. You must subscribe. It will be much to your advantage. Hopkinson. We cannot subscribe, my lord, without protestation. And we have not so far examined every point, that we can subscribe at present, therefore we desire longer respite. B. What respite would you have, after the use of the book twenty-five years 2 If you be not skilful in the knowledge of it, in so long a time, it seems as if you had not used it much. - Hopk. There are many things in the book which belong not to us, or to our ministry, therefore we desire favour in this subscription. A. You shall subscribe or you shall enjoy no place in the ministry. And because you are the first who have been thus far proceeded against, in this case, you shall be made an example to all others. \
* MS. Register, p. 397–401.
Hopk. If your lordship will deal thus hardly with us, we must give up our places. A. If you do give them up, I can furnish them with as sufficient men as you are, and yet conformable. B. Rochester. There are many learned men who are now in want of livings. These will fill up their places. A. You of Sussex have been accounted very disorderly and contentious; and her majesty hath been informed of you; and I mean to proceed strictly with you. U. My lord, the ministers of Sussex have been as well ordered as any in the kingdom, until one Shales came among them, and broached certain points of popery and heresy, which hath been the cause of all those troubles. A. It would have been a wonder, if you had not been quiet, seeing you have all done as you pleased, without the least controul : the devil will be quiet so long. Why do you not accuse the man 2 and you shall see how I will deal with him. - B. Roches. What were his points of popery and heresy U. My lord hath been informed of these things already. d A. I remember you found fault yesterday with holyays. B. Have we not as good reason to maintain the holy-days established by law, as you have to make them when you please ? Hopk. We make no holy-days. B. What do you else, when you call the people together unto sermons on working-days? Hopk. When we have sermons, the people go to work before sermon, and return to work after sermon, as on other days: but to do this on the holy-days, they might be presented and punished, as hath been lately witnessed. A. I see whence you have most of your doubts. Mr. Cartwright and I might have been better employed, especially he, who began the contest.” If you have any more doubts, propose them now, seeing there are so many of the bishops to answer them. H. In the rubric before confirmation, salvation is ascribed to baptism. For whosoever is baptized, is said to be. undoubtedly saved. A. Is there any such thing in the book 2 H. Yes, my lord, those are the words. * This statement is incorrect. Mr. Cartwright did not begin the con
test : but Whitgift himself engaged first in the controversy.—See Art. Cartwright.
A. let us see the book. * Hartwell. They are the last words of the rubric. A. The meaning of the book is to exclude the popish opinion of confirmation, as if it were as necessary as baptism. Therefore, those who have been baptized have all outward things necessary to salvation, even without confirmation. H. The words may be taken in another sense, and, therefore, may not be subscribed without some deliberation. Dean. I wonder you do not subscribe, seeing there is
nothing in the second article which is not in the third, and
you are willing to subscribe the third. U. We have subscribed to the third already; and seein all things contained in the second are contained in the third, we desire you to be satisfied with that subscription. B. Not so. - - Norden. How do your lordships understand these words, “Receive the Holy Ghost, for the office of a priest :" A. Not imperatively, but optatively; and this speech is much the same as that other, “I baptize thee,” &c. B. We cannot give the Holy Ghost. B. Roches. Do you not think, that when we use these words, we do communicate something 2 U. I think not, my lord. For persons return from you no better furnished, than when they came unto you, if we may form our opinion from their practice. . . A. We hope you are now resolved, and will now subscribe. You are unlearned, and only boys in comparison of us, who studied divinity before most of you were born. U. We acknowledge our youth, my lord, and have no high opinion of our learning. Yet we hold ourselves sufficiently learned to know and teach Jesus Christ, as the way of salvation. - Hopk. If we subscribe under such interpretations, our subscription may become dangerous to us hereafter; when no interpretation may be allowed; therefore, we desire some protestation. - A. I will admit no protestation. . . 1 Dean. Come, Mr. Hopkinson, subscribe. My lord will favour you much, and help you against your adversaries. Hopk. We must be better advised, Mr. Dean. : A. Go into the garden, or elsewhere, and consider of this matter, and return here again. . . . These divines having retired for some time, after consultation among themselves, they returned and consented to subscribe, on condition that their subscription should not be required to anything against the word of God, or contrary to the analogy of faith; and that it should not be extended to anything not already contained in the Book of Common Prayer. Also, to avoid all cavilling, Mr. Underdown protested, that the book of consecration did not belong to them, and that they could not subscribe to it; yet he acknowledged the ministry of the church to be lawful. To these conditions the archbishop and bishops agreed; and the ministers accordingly subscribed. Afterwards, Mr. Underdown having requested that the cross in baptism o: not be urged, the conversation was briefly renewed, as follows: A. You must use the cross, or the statute will reach Ou. Hopk. Because it is intended as a significant sign, and is a new mystery in the church, we take it to be contrary to the second commandment. A. Remember, it is required in the rubric. -* N. It seemeth hard that the child must be asked whether. it believe, and will be baptized. A. The child is not asked, but the godfathers. N. The godfathers and godmothers are several; therefore, if this were the meaning of the book, the number should be altered. U. There are in our county many more of our brethren: suspended for not subscribing. We beseech you that they may enjoy the same benefit, if they will subseribe as we have done. A. I am content. B. Roches. Are there any more who have refused? U. Yes, my lord; there are above twenty in all. B. Are there so many in your county 2 German. There are some who have subscribed, and are eatly troubled in mind for what they have done. What o you think they had best do? . . A. Let them come to me, and I hope to satisfy them." In the conclusion of the above conference, Mr. Underdown and his brethren were dismissed, when they returned home; and December 11th, being assembled in open court: at Lewes, they were publicly released from their suspensions, where the business ended.