way. I was pleased with the idea suggested as to the form in which these should be gathered.

Now, there are four things which occur to me as worthy of being considered in collecting these statistics: First, how many children. there are to be educated in the different States and cities. We do not know that. I do not know how many there are between 6 and 21 in Pennsylvania. I do not know, even though the census-marshals took the census in regard to it, because I have ascertained that that census is wholly unreliable as to the statistics, and I want to say that in Washington. I say that in our State, so far as the census-marshals gathered the school-statistics, they are wholly unreliable. We want something better than that. They may have done better in other States. There is scarcely an approximation to the truth with us; they were a guess. In one particular town, the schools happened to have their vacation when the marshals visited it, and they reported the children as out of school. That is a specimen of the manner in which the thing was done.

We want to know, by some reliable means: First, how many children there are; secondly, how many are enrolled in the schools; thirdly, the attendance. We want to ascertain these things uniformly, and I hope the Commissioner of Education may promulgate some form that we may adopt in every State and city, and that we may have uniform statistics. I do not care how they are gathered, whether in one way or another; but they should all be gathered in the same way, so that we may tell one story in all the States, and that a truthful story.

Hon. M. B. HOPKINS. I cannot see how it is practicable to get uniformity in this enumeration in the way suggested. I cannot see how any recommendation from the Commissioner of Education here or any blank forms sent out to the different States will elicit the desired information unless the laws on the subject are uniform. In Indiana we have a law requiring an enumeration to be taken every year of all the children between 6 and 21 years of age; and we test that law every year. The results are decidedly satisfactory. I have no doubt that we have the matter as nearly right as we can get it.

This enumeration is taken by the township-trustees, and the regular increase from year to year shows that it must be about correct.

In other States it is different; you send out blanks to all, and they will return such information as they get under the law. But it will not be uniform. For this reason, you cannot bring about uniformity in the States; for without the same laws you cannot reach the case. There is a difference between operating under law and simply making a request. A State-or city-board may issue blanks, asking for information as to the number of children between 5 and 15 and between 15 and 21. We have no authority to demand that; it is a request simply. Some will respond and some will not; and hence the information is in a great degree unreliable. Some will not report at all: they are not sworn to do it; they have no compensation for it. It seems to me the way to reach the

number to be educated is by having some uniform law. This, I suppose, will have to be brought about by individual action in the States. Perhaps it may come within the province of this committee to recommend some kind of uniformity.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. I think it can be brought about in this way: If the Commissioner of Education shall recommend the adoption of the Indiana law as the best, I think it will not be difficult to secure such legislation; I know it will not be in my State. I think the executive officers can secure its adoption. If the law in Ohio is better than that of Indiana, we can have that. What we want is concert of action and

to know what is best to be done.

General EATON. I dislike to take the time of the convention, and yet the point before us is so vital that I cannot refrain from saying a few words. The ideas of those present here have been stated in different forms. We have got a thing to do; we want to know what that is. We must know the number of children that are to be educated; for it is their education that we, as educators, are trying to accomplish. Now, we do not know that, and yet we are coming towards it with a certainty which is very encouraging, in spite of all the difficulties thrown in our way. I look over the results that come into our office year by year with amazement at their improvement and progress. I am amazed at the growth of the educational men in this country in this particular, and it is exceedingly gratifying to me to know that we educators stand with our eyes open in respect to this vital point and with our hearts fully devoted to the work of making it right. For, as I look around the world, I see that the different forms of statesmanship are all coming back and crystalizing upon the basis of statistics; and that, if there is any change going on to day in the manner of conducting affairs of state, it is in the direction of statistical accuracy in all details. This indicates to me, not only the interest that educators are taking in the affairs of the world, but also the influence they are exerting; and, if you are able to agree to some extent in the essentials of these statistics, you are to do a most important thing.

I do not believe that it is possible to obtain, and I feel more and more certain that it is not desirable to try to obtain, this uniformity in details; but I feel also more and more the absolute necessity of uniformity in certain particulars. Now, one State can go as far down as it chooses in reckoning its children as subject to education for its own purposes and just as high as it chooses; but, when it wishes to bring itself into comparison with other States, there must be a uniform figure. If you choose to have no limit for local purposes, very well; but, if you will designate the age, as 5 or 6, as the limit in one direction, and make the limit in the other direction 15 or 16, let those limits be uniform in all the States, and you will have a basis of comparison. I can make these comparisons with our State- and city-schools, however, better than with those of foreign countries. A little matter came to me the other day which gave me

a lively sense of the difficulty. A writer in the London Times, advocating the feasibility of free education, came back on me, using our statistics in this country as an argument against the efficiency of American education in comparison with English, when there is no uniform basis on which the progress made in the two countries may be compared.

If you look at the fact that we allow the school-age to run up to 21 and down to 3 or 4, and reflect that in Europe they do not usually allow the limit to go below 6 or above 14, you can see the injustice of the comparison made. And when you reflect that those countries cannot have any free education in distinction from rate-billeducation, you will see that it is exceedingly desirable to reach the result which we are endeavoring to accomplish here, of not only having a truly free education, but an exhibition of it in statistics uniform throughout the States.

The labor in this direction cannot be described; and yet, with all these difficulties, you are so anxious, and other educational officers are so anxious, to make some accurate tally and know where we are, and whether going forward or backward in intelligence and virtue, that I think you will be pleased to be assured of what we see at our Bureau, viz: a steady improvement in our educational systems and in the fullness of our tabulation of results.

I must mention one single instance. I remember the first time we tried to get the statistics of the cities, and sent out circulars, we were able to compare only some fourteen or fifteen cities, whereas now we can tally with considerable accuracy about three hundred and fifty. I do not know that there is a better indication of progress in any direction than this presents.

Let me say a word about accuracy in these things. Of course we feel badly if we detect mistakes, but there is some satisfaction in knowing that we are not the only persons who may be mistaken. I was present at a very scientific discussion, conducted by very learned men upon the heights of our mountains. If any teacher should find in his school pupils in geography who could not tell the exact height of our principal mountains, he would mark that as a failure; but I found these learned men could not tell within a distance of several hundred feet. I went back to my office quite reconciled to the idea of occasional failures there, for I thought that if these gentlemen make such mistakes and failures in material science, what may we not excuse in matters of educational and social science.

Another instance: In reading an English work on navigation, it occurred to me to observe whether these gentlemen were satisfied about the latitude and longitude of different places; so I turned to Cambridge, and I found that, after making a series of modifying statements, this author was willing to admit that, when many observations had been tested for a series of years, the latitude and longitude of Cambridge might be put down with a good deal of certainty as so and so. I con

cluded that, with the present progress in educational statistics, we may hope to attain sufficient accuracy for all practical purposes.

Mr. PHILBRICK expressed the hope that some definite periods for enumeration might be agreed upon, that a minimum and a maximum of age might be fixed. He thought 18 should be the maximum, as that is about the fair period for the termination of secondary education, so far as the public schools are concerned. There might be some reason for taking the limit of the termination of elementary education. He would begin at 5, inasmuch as some public provision should be made for the education of children under 6 years of age, and to end at 15.

Mr. PHILBRICK then moved that the enumeration of children, as due at school, be considered as beginning at 5 and ending at 15.

Mr. BICKNELL was satisfied with that, as it is at present the period of school-age fixed upon in Rhode Island; but he would move a reference of the question to the committee on statistics. Agreed to.

General EATON, from the committee on business, during the debate made the following report:

The committee recommend

(1) The appointment of a general committee on the Centennial, to cooperate with the Commissioner of Education in devising practical plans for a representation of the educational progress of the country at Philadelphia in 1876, said committee to consist of the executive schoolofficers of the several States and Territories.

(2) A committee of five on statistical forms.

(3) A committee on resolutions.

(4) A committee on national aid to education.

He also presented the following programme for Friday:

At 9.30 o'clock a. m. a meeting will be held for preliminary business. At 10 o'clock the committee on the Centennial will report.

At 11 o'clock the reception of the President of the United States. Secretary of the Interior, and the governor of the District of Columbia; which will be followed by the reading of a paper on city-education, by Prof. Philbrick, the report of the committee on national aid to education, and the report of the committee on statistical form.

A recommendation that a committee of five be appointed to consider the relation of the General Government to education in the District was added, and the report was adopted.

Mr. CREERY moved that when they adjourn they adjourn to this evening at 7.30 o'clock. Agreed to.

The Chair then announced the following standing committees:

On statistical form: Messrs. Harvey, Ohio; Creery, Baltimore; Philbrick, Boston; Northrop, Connecticut; Atkinson, Virginia.

Resolutions: Messrs. Wickersham, Pennsylvania; Wilson, Washington; Beede, New Hampshire; Byrne, West Virginia; and Parish, New Haven.

Aid to education: Messrs. Ruffner, Virginia; Bicknell, Rhode Island; Hopkins, Indiana; Newell, Maryland; and Jillson, South Carolina.

Centennial: General Eaton, Hons. T. W. Harvey, E. W. Byrne, J. P. Wickersham, D. E. Beede, B. G. Northrop, J. K. Jillson, M. B. Hopkins, M. A. Newell, T. B. Bicknell, and the chief executive school-officer of each State.

On the relation of the National Government to education in the District of Columbia: Messrs. Wickersham, Ruffner, Philbrick, Hopkins, and Harvey.

The department then took a recess until 7.30 o'clock p. m.

EVENING-SESSION.

The department re-assembled at 7 o'clock, and was called to order by the president, who introduced, as the lecturer of the evening Hon. A. D. White, president of Cornell University.

ADDRESS OF PRESIDENT WHITE.

MR. CHAIRMAN AND GENTLEMEN OF THE ASSOCIATION: I shall take the liberty, with the consent of leading gentlemen of the association, to modify somewhat the subject of my address. I shall speak upon "Scientific and industrial education, and the true policy of the National and State Governments in regard to it."

RISE OF SCIENTIFIC SCHOOLS.

Within the last thirty years, and mainly within the last twenty years, there has grown up in our country a great system of scientific and industrial education. It is no mushroom-growth; it is a culmination of the longings, the thoughts, the plans, and the work of many generations.

I might speak of the beginning, made over two hundred years ago in England, by that great industrial genius, the Marquis of Worcester, who, in advance of his time, advocated a system of industrial education which received only scoffs and abuse; I might speak of the first great success in introducing industrial education in France, a hundred years ago, by De Liancourt, which laid the foundation of French supremacy in so many branches of industry; I might speak of the efforts in Germany and Switzerland to make a beginning in this important system, which has enabled these countries to take a leading part in the industrial warfare of this century; but I shall come to a period, about twenty-five years ago, when Mr. Lawrence, of Massachusetts, a thoughtful manufacturer, gave the beginning of an endowment for an institution in which applied science should be taught, at Cambridge, in Massachusetts. Not that this was the first effort of the kind. Eaton, at Troy, had done a noble work; and others had done similar work in various institutions throughout the country, to some extent. But still, then and there was the first attempt, in this country, in connection with a great university-corporation, to establish scientific and industrial education. About five years later, in connection with Yale College, Mr. Sheffield established the Sheffield Scientific School for the same purpose, that of instruction in applied science.

DRAWBACKS.

Still, there was one drawback, and that a very serious one. In neither of these insti tutions, noble as they were, was the scientific student considered as the equal of the student in literature, and especially in classical literature. He was educated in a different building, under different professors, was graduated from a different commencementstage, and was not enrolled in the catalogue as of the class of any given year. Ask