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28 May, 1908.]

Mr. CAMPLING.

[Continued.

Mr. John JOSEPH BEXFIELD CAMPLING, called in ; and Examined.

Chairman.

Chairman-continued. 1866. You are Secretary and Manager to will result by the passing of this Bill, is that there Morel Brothers, Cobbett & Son, Limited, of 210, will be a great diminution in the number of Piccadilly ?-Yes. I have been engaged in that illegitimate births. Everyone knows that after firm for the past 20 years, and, as an employer of sunset it turns colder, and, although perhaps not labour of the shop and warehouse class, I have dark, the temperature is not congenial to remaining had opportunities to study the different characters out of doors without exercise. I notice that the engaged in those occupations. In my early railway companies are in favour of an alteration career I took considerable interest also in games of the clock, and that so far there has been no and athletic sports, being captain of a well-known organised opposition by the lighting companies. bicycle club, and have served six years in the Perhaps these latter are wise in their generation, Norfolk and Norwich Rifle Volunteers, and later as any figures they might produce would be the on as a trooper of the Middlesex Yeomanry. greatest advertisement the Bill could have. Now

1867. How many men does your firm employ ? I have taken the trouble to go amongst my Between 50 and 60 men. They are of a class, employees, those who are married, to find out of course, which are very numerous in this country, what they spend in artificial light. It is notorious viz., the working and middle classes. I find the that the working classes, having regard to their best business men are those who are country wages, are extravagant in artificial lighting. They bred, or whose childhood has been spent in the mostly go in for the “penny-in-the-slot,” and outside suburbs or country. A lad who is fond from inquiries I have made, I find that each house of sports, athletics, gardening, or has a hobby consumes about 2s. 6d. worth of gas per week connected with out-of-door occupation makes in winter, and Is. 6d. in summer. This usually the best clerk or warehouseman. I have started includes the married couple and family and the lads who have been strongly recommended to front-room lodger. I therefore estimate that on me by masters of London School Boards, but the average there would be a saving of ls. per they have not proved so successful as a boy who week per house during summer. . comes from the suburbs or the country. If, therefore, this Bill has the effect of sending the

Mr. Pirie. working classes to live in the suburbs (which I think it will) it will prove a benefit to the nation. 1868. Per week ?-Per week. With regard to The men in the employment of my company the method of making the alteration, I believe mostly leave their homes at about 7 a.m., and that in theory Mr. Willett's suggestion of 20 return about 8 p.m., our business hours being minutes per week for four weeks is good, yet from eight to seven. They mostly retire to bed I think that one alteration of one and a half hours about 10 p.m. This means that they have only would be found to cause less confusion. An two hours of each week-day at their own disposal. alteration of the clock is in my opinion the only If, therefore, daylight for, say, one and half of these method of getting people to rise earlier, and if two hours could be given to them during the I were bringing this Bill before Parliament I summer months it would prove an inestimable should call it "A Bill to make the sun set one boom. The Englishman by nature is a born and a half hours later.” Everybody I have discussed gardener, and fond of out-door sports and hobbies, the Bill with has, after understanding its object, but he cannot practise these in the dark. A great agreed with it and in favour of its being passed, and deal has been said of the glorious sunrise, but only require a date to be fixed by Parliament when I do not think if this Bill is passed many more to make the alteration to the clock. I am opposed people will see the sun rise at midsummer, but the to a change all the year round. A man will sit up great charm of the Bill is that it will give to after sunset, but he objects to get up in the dark. the working classes and others a great deal of As a further point in favour of a longer day in daylight between the hours of 8 and 10 p.m., summer, I find, personally, I do not require so and these are really their only hours of recreation. much sleep during the summer months. The more one mixes with the working classes the more one admires their enthusiasm for hobbies

Chairman. and sports. I have one man who rushes off to the Green Park every Thursday, and arrives just in 1869. You consider generally that it would time to hear the National Anthem played. Another redound to the advantage of the big shops and can be found each Sunday on the banks of the Lea, establishments in London ?-I think it would more fishing. Another, whose religious scruples will than to any other class. We, as retailers, have to not allow him to break the Sabbath, can be seen suit the business to our customers; we cannot gardening by lantern light. Others I have seen alter our hours, we are so mixed up with all other elso starting at 8 p.m. for a bicycle ride in the trades. country with their lamps alight. Another lad

Mr. Holt. won an open lawn tennis tournament last year at Harrogate, and the only practice he had was

1870. Why do you think it will reduce the about half an hour (whilst the light lasted) each number of illegitimate births ?-Well, Sir, I think evening for three weeks before the event. Take

this : If you have it dusk at 10 o'clock instead of any provincial town at the hours 8 to 10 p.m., at eight o'clock the opportunities are less. and you will see the youth of both sexes congregating at the street corners in the dusk on summer evenings with nothing to do. A point

(The Witness withdrew.) I have not yet seen raised, but which I am certain

1871. I

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Chairman.

Mr. Pearce-continued. 1871. I understand you produce a diagram ? 1882. And the greater red circle represents Yes (handing in same).

sunset ?-Yes.

1883. It is, as I understand, arranged carefully Mr. Pearce.

for the time of sunset all the year round ?-Yes. 1872. You reside at 66, The Grove, Hammer

1884. According to Greenwich mean time ? — smith ?-Yes, Sir.

Yes. 1873. And you prepared this diagram ?-Yes. 1885. Then the blue circle—the broken circle

1874. Will you just say something about it is the line of clock alteration suggested by the to the Chairman and the Committee ? Will

terms of the Bill ?-Yes. you explain it; I do not know whether I quite understand it ?-1 prepared that for my own

Chairman. use two or three years ago.

I have used it

1886. It is a very interesting diagram, and occasionally, just for a skeleton diary.

shows a great amount of trouble and industry. Chairman.

Mr. Pirie. 1875. In connection with what scheme ; is it an idea of your own ?-Yes; then somebody

1887. What induced you to undertake this suggested that it might be of use to show the

work ?–1 have always been interested in the amount of daylight saved.

subject, and I have taken the calendar as a circle 1876. How many hours of daylight does your

—that is to say, the year as a circle—and I thought scheme give ?-This is Mr. Willett's scheme it would be a good thing to visualise the time (indicating the diagram).

of the year; and the idea came out in the form

of a calendar-a circle. 1877. What is it you had worked out before of your own ? I understood you to say you

1888. You are interested in the project of had worked out something two or three years

this Bill, are you?-Yes, I approve of it, decidedly. ago ?-Simply the diagram itself, for my own use.

Chairman.
Mr. Pearce.

1889. Do I understand you to say that this 1878. Might I say that the dark hours are diagram is made in connection with Mr. Willett's represented by the darker circles on this diagram ?

scheme for the increase of daylight ?-Yes. -Yes.

1890. What does this represent (pointing to 1879. And the morning dark hours ?-Yes, the diagram) ?—That is to show the amount of gain, and the evening dark hours.

practically. 1880. And the evening dark hours. The

1891. That is to represent the gain of the daylight is represented between the two red

210 hours that Mr. Willett claims for his scheme? lines ?-Yes.

Yes. 1881. The smaller red circle represents the sunrise ? _The sunrise.

(The Witness withdrew.)

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Chairman.

Chairman-continued. 1892. Have you come here as a representative better just say how I became interested in this of a large body of working-men, or do you repre Bill. If you will allow me to read a statement sent any association ?-No, I do not. I had perhaps it will be better. “My attention was

called

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. HUBBARD.

[Continued.

am

of

Chairman-continued.

Chairman-continued. called to this matter by a business friend in the are 65}. If it was lifted up an hour a day, railway train a few weeks ago. Up to then multiplied by 2,000, which is the number of our I had not given any serious thought to it. He

He workers, it would give us 131,000 hours of daykindly sent me on Mr. Willett's pamphlet on light saved. * The Waste of Daylight.' I read this with great interest, and there seemed to be something to say

Mr. Richards. in its favour. Any scheme that enables work 1902. Artificial light saved ?-Yes, artificial to be done under better conditions is well worthy light saved. Our people, I may say, prefer to of the consideration of the British Parliament.' commence working earlier in the morning. We Having read the paper, I must say that, if one have sometimes, unfortunately, to work over difficulty can be got over, I think it will be a time, and they always prefer, if possible, to work very good thing.

the overtime in the early part of the day 1893. What is that difficulty ?-Moving the 1903. They prefer to work the overtime in clock.

the morning ?-Yes, they prefer to work the 1894. What is your suggestion ?-I have made overtime in the morning. a calculation. We have worked Mr. Willett's 1904. What is it that prevents your association scheme out on the basis of our present working. from starting earlier ?—The hour of commencng Perhaps I had better explain. We commence is the custom of the trade in Leicester. to work at eight o'clock in the morning.

1905. Are there any material hindrances besides 1895. When you say we,” whom do you the sentimental impediment of custom ?-I do mean ?-I

manager of the Co-operative not think so. Wholesale Society's Boot and Shoe Works, 1906. You, having considered the matter in Leicester. We employ 2,000 workpeople. all its bearings, are of opinion that it is as well to

1896. That is what I wanted to get at ?-I have an alteration of one hour for the whole year? beg your pardon. Excuse me in this matter, -Yes, that is my opinion. but it is my first appearance.

1907. Would you recommend this being done 1897. No harm is done. We shall be very by legislative machinery or by organisation glad to have your evidence ?-I represent the among the general body of the workers in the Co-operative Society, whose headquarters are at country ?-I think that it should be done by 1, Balloon Street, Manchester. They have works Parliament. at various parts of the country, and amongst 1908. You consider that the advantages their works are the shoe industry works. Leicester, putting on the clock would be very material ? as is well known, is a centre of the shoe industry, Yes, I do. but I am speaking for myself now.

1909. In more ways than one ?—Yes, in 1898. You have no authority to speak for ways. your organisation ?-No. I have no authority 1910. You think that it would be conducive to speak for my Directors. As I have said, we to immense economy in the use of artificial illuhave worked Mr. Willett's scheme out on the minants ?-Yes ; that is so, it would be economical. basis of our present working. We commence at 1911. Previously to this meeting of the Comeight o'clock in the morning, work until the mid-day mittee, it has been suggested that if you get workmeal, recommence at two o'clock, and work till men to leave off work earlier it might be con6.30 p.m. We find that we should save only ducive to their spending more money in getting in the second week in September, 24 hours, and about, and that what advantage you would gain in in the third week in September, five hours. This, one direction you would lose in another. Do multiplied by 2,000, which is the number of you think there is anything in that contention ?workers that we have, would save 15,000 hours I do not think so. I do not think that it would be of artificial light. That is our present working. a temptation to working-men. They would have But if the time of commencing work could be more leisure at the end of the day, which is neceslifted one hour earlier for the whole year, we sary, and I believe as a rule they would use it to should save the following hours from the use of their own advantage. . artificial light. I have taken the working hours 1912. You desire that Parliament should issuie of 1908 as a basis.

forth an edict that work should commence at a 1889. From eight o'clock to 6.30?-Yes; January, certain hour ?—Yes. 23 working days, half an hour a day, 11} hours. 1913. Rather than the provisions of the Bill, February, 19 working days, half an hour a day, which leave everybody at perfect liberty to do 93 hours.

exactly as he likes ?-I think that it would be 1900. I do not think you need to go into all more beneficial. these details, because, if there is really that saving 1914. Have you considered the prejudice that all the year round, we can work that out perfectly. a compulsory arrangement of that sort would bring I would point out to you, with regard to the about?-Yes. We practically now have to work suggestion of putting on the clock for an hour within certain specified hours by Act of Parliafor the whole year, that for practically 64 months ment. you do not get any extra daylight. You see that ? 1915. But let us assume that the Bill passes, and Daylight does not commence practically, to all that some sort of alteration of clocks is agreed to intents and purposes, until about eight during the by Parliament without compelling anybody to winter months ?-Yes.

It would affect five begin work earlier or leave off earlier or to make months during the year.

any arrangements other than those which are 1901. Yes ? –To put it briefly, the total hours suited to the person concerned. Do

you

not

many

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE DAYLIGHT SAVING BILL.

97

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. HUBBARD.

[Continued.

see.

Mr. Richards-continued.

Mr. Pearce-continued. think that that would be a far better method of Is that so ? Do you understand that ?-Yes, proceeding ?-Well, it is always better to get the that is the Bill. consensus of opinion of the people affected rather 1932. Now, I want to ask you whether in your than to proceed by Act of Parliament. I concede judgment, not limited only to your own trade, the that at once.

hour chosen in the Bill is the right hour for 1916. Have you considered that the compulsion making a change ?-The early morning, I should as regards 64 months of the year would be practi- think, is the best time. cally nugatory during the months that the sun rises 1933. The early morning on Sundays ?-I ain late ?-Yes.

afraid that there would be a little difficulty if you 1917. How would you get a regulation of that altered the clock on Sundays. sort to work? If Parliament were to say that 1934. There is nothing in the Bill about altering people were to begin work at six o'clock in the the clock. I am speaking of the shortening of the morning you could not expect them to begin at hours and the lengthening of the hours in April six on a dark winter morning, and if they did so there and September on Sundays. Do you agree that would be a great loss of artificial light ?-As far Sunday is the best day? It would not affect us, as our industry is concerned, one hour would be

of course. sufficient; that would be seven o'clock, you 1935. But do you agree that Sunday is the

best time for the change ?-Yes, I do agree. 1918. During the winter months it is pitch dark 1936. Have you heard the suggestion that at seven o'clock. During four months of the year the change should be made during the hours of it is practically pitch dark then ?-Yes, that is so. morning service on Sunday, making the service It is dark for a certain part of the year at that shorter on Sunday mornings in April

, making up time.

for it by making them longer on Sunday mornings 1919. So that the effect of a compulsory Act in September ?—I have not heard of that. would be practically nugatory as regards those 1937. You have not heard that suggestion ? months ?-Yes, as far as saving artificial light in —No, I have not heard that. those months, that is so.

1938. Would you consider that alternative a 1920. Therefore certain other alterations have better one than a change in the night ?—I consider to be made ?-Yes.

the morning is the best time to change it. 1921. So that I put it to you that the suggestion 1939. The early morning, that is to say, in the that you make is not in all material respects night ?—The Bill suggests two o'clock, I think. practicable ?-Perhaps I have not looked at it 1940. Between two and three o'clock ?-I think from that point of view.

that would be the best time, and if the difficulty

of time could be got over I think it would be a very Mr. Pearce.

good thing.

1941. Have you thought about the length of 1922. Carrying that a little further, of course the change—whether it should be in periods of there are great numbers of men who work in shifts ? 20 minutes or not?-I think it would be better -Yes.

if it could be one change. 1923. Who work in shifts of time like miners ? 1942. And that one change of one hour ? -Yes.

Yes, that one change a change of an hour. 1924. Any Parliamentary rule in regard to the hour for beginning work would be quite inappropriate to them ?-Yes, that is so.

Mr. Holt. 1925. It might suit the boot trade in Leicester 1943. I understand you to say with regard to to begin an hour earlier, but you would hardly the hours that you work at your boot factories recommend that a special law should be made that you begin at eight and finish at 6.30 ?-Yes. regulating one industry ?-No, I do not recommend 1944. All the year round ?-All the year round. that.

1945. You think, and your workmen, I gather, 1926. The present hours for beginning work in think too, that it would be better to begin work all the various trades everywhere are the result, a little earlier ?-Yes. are they not, of practice and convenience? Is 1946. I presuine that you have a trade associathat not so ?—Yes, I should say that is so.

tion ?-Yes. 1927. The effect of which has been that we have 1947. That association probably rules a good gradually ruled our time for beginning work by the many things ?-Yes, it does rule a good many darkness of winter. Is that not so? We begin

We begin things. rather later ?— Yes, in some trades that is so. 1948. We have had plenty of evidence that

1928. Almost all over the country we begin other trades have altered their hours by consent. later, and we neglect the early morning hours in Now, what on earth is there to prevent your summer ?—Yes, that is so.

trade association from passing a resolution that 1929. Have you read the Bill ?-Yes, I have you shall begin at seven o'clock and end at 5.30 ?-I read the Bill.

do not know that there is anything to prevent 1930. You see that the Bill itself says nothing that. about the hours for beginning work? It says noth 1949. Has that resolution ever been proposed ? ing about daylight even, except in the title ?-Yes. I do not know; we are not members of the

1931. The proposition in the Bill is to make Federation. a common rule about beginning an hour earlier 1950. But if you did adopt the hours of seven on Sunday mornings in April and September. o'clock to 5.30, you would then be working almost M

15

exactly

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. HUBBARD.

[Continued.

Course.

Mr. Holt-continued.

Mr. Richards continued. exactly the same hours as dock labourers. Now, if 1965. You had practically three breaks during you want to work at earlier hours, would it not really the day?-Yes. be much simpler to call all the people in your trade 1966. Breakfast, dinner and tea ?-Breakfast, together and propose to this Federation that the dinner and tea. hours should be altered ?-You see, we have no 1967. Now the trade has abandoned two of the standing with the Federation. The Co-operative breaks ?-Yes. Bont Manufacturers' Association are outside the 1968. Tliev have abandoned the break for Federation.

breakfast and the break for tea ?-Yes, we have 1951. But would it not be much simpler for only one break per day. boot operatives, who also, no doubt, have a trade 1969. In the old days did you find any difficulty union, to do as I suggest? They have a trade when you wanted certain work done, if you just union, have they not?—Yes. I do not know gave the order that it must be done, in getting it what their opinion is on the matter. They have done. Supposing that you gave work out at six a very strong organisation.

o'clock at night to a man who worked at home, 1952. It would not be at all a difficult thing, and that you wanted it by eight o'clock the next if there was general agreement in saying that it morning, you did not bother, did you, about the was the intention to work from 7 to 7.30. There time he got up ?-No, we did not trouble about would be no great difficulty, would there?-No, that. there would be no great difficulty.

1970. What was the reason why half-past six 1953. Does it not strike you as rather unreason was abandoned ?-I think it was when the whole able that because you want to alter your hours of the industry came under factory control instead from 8 o'clock to 7 o'clock, other people should of the work being done at their own homes. have any amount of pressure put upon them to 1971. Had not the breakfast hour something to alter their hours from 7 o'clock to 6 o'clock ? do with it?-It might have been a determining I was giving my views on the matter as it effects factor, but I think that the other was the most our trade. Each trade has its peculiarities, of influential factor in the case.

1972. You used to start work at half-past six 1954. Quite so. You said, I think, that if this

in April, and go on up to September ?—Yes, was done, working-men would have more leisure commencing the 1st April and leaving off in at the end of the day?-Yes, that is so.

September 1955. You do not contemplate that they would 1973. If the suggestion that you make of starting go to bed any earlier, do you ?-They possibly work one hour earlier in the shoe trade, say at might. They would get tired an hour earlier, seven o'clock, were adopted, and you adopted the would they not?

same principle as is now adopted, would not that 1956. But if they went to bed correspondingly necessitate some men getting up at six o'clock earlier they would not have more leisure ?—They and having breakfast at half-past six o'clock. would have more daylight.

Those who live out of Leicester and have to come 1957. They would have more daylight, but not to your place would have to get up at about four more leisure. If they went to bed an hour earlier o'clock ?-Not quite so early as that. they would not have any more leisure ?—It depends 1974. Many of them have, I know, 40 or 50 on whether they go to bed, of course.

minutes' walk. Then you would have to use 1958. The obtaining of more leisure entirely artificial light in the winter mornings ?- We should depends upon

their leaving off work an hour earlier have to in that case, of course. and going to bed at the same time?-Yes, that is

1975. Usually the shoe trade is not a busy

trade in the winter ?—That is so. 1959. The only difference if you leave off work 1976. You only wish that it was. Operatives earlier and go to bed earlier is that you get more wish that it was ?- That is so. leisure in the daylight ?-Yes.

1977. They wish that it was busy in the winter 1960. You would not get more leisure in the and that it eased off in the summer ?—Yes, we total ?-No; that is so, but you would get more should like to reverse it. We may be working leisure in daylight.

towards that. 1961. They would not get more leisure in the 1978. You would like to alter the seasons ? total ?—That is so.

-Yes.

1979. You think that there would be no Mr. Richards.

difficulty if a general rule or a law was come to,

that should be observed by everyone, which 1962. May I ask how many people you have at necessitated a man having to get up and start the Knighton Works ?-We have 1,550 there, work at seven in the morning or six in the and 450 at Dunn Lane, which is under the same morning and have breakfast before he went. control.

You do not think there would be any difficulty 1963. Do the Enderby works come under you ? in that ?-I do not think so. Yes, there are about 200 there.

1980. With regard to the advantages which 1964. What hours of work have you known you suppose would ensue, there is not the least in the trade? For instance, when

you

first doubt that many of your members are allottees ? knew the trade, what were the hours of work -Of what? then ?-We commenced at 6.30 in the morning 1981. They have gardens ?-Yes, I mentioned in the summer months, and at 8 o'clock in the that in my written remarks, but I did not have morning in the winter months.

time to read it.

1982. The

80.

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