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2 June, 1908.]

Mr. BARTHOLAMEW.

[Continued.

seven.

Chairman-continued.

Mr. Pearce-continued. between distant countries. I am familiar with 2118. Have you weighed that in thinking about cabling to distant countries. I have to do it all the the proposed change of one hour ?-Yes, carefully. time. We know quite well what the differences 2119. You prefer to make the change ?—I prefer in time are, and I do not think we shall be likely to make the change. to forget that there is another difference of an hour and 20 minutes. If I am cabling to-morrow

Mr. Holt. morning to South Africa, for instance, I have to

2120. What hours do you work in your facreflect in one way. I am obliged to think dif

tories ?-We begin at seven o'clock and close at ferently when I am cabling to South Africa from

six, with one hour-from 12 to one—for dinner. when I am cabling to the United States or Aus

2121. Is that the same both in London and tralia or New Zealand, but I do not find it a terrible

Liverpool ?-Yes. strain on my capacity or on that of my staff to

2122. What in your judgment would be the have to think. I was sorry to hear Sir William

difficulty which would prevent you from starting Ramsay say what he did about thinking. We are

in the summer months at six o'clock and closing at generally able to reconcile with our time the time

five. Is there anything to stop your doing that ? in the country to which we want to cable, and we

-Nothing whatever. cable accordingly.

2123. Why do you not do it ?-Because we 2106. You have to think Imperially and inter

prefer to work from seven to six. I have had a nationally as well as locally ?-Yes, and we do

We not find it any great strain upon us.

pretty long experience of changing hours.

have sometimes commenced an hour earlier in the 2107. Your distinct view is, after considering

summer than in the winter. After being at six for all the circumstances of the case, that the advantage would immensely counterbalance any possible

something like 30 years my colleagues and I and trouble or confusion that may arise during the

the workpeople, who are entirely with us, have

come to the conclusion that closing at six in the earlier stages of putting the Bill into operation ?

evening is the best arrangement of all that we have Enormously, I think. I think that probably

tried. We consult our workpeople. If our workworking people may be a little troublesome at the outset, but those of my own workpeople to whom

people said to me next week, “We would rather

work at different hours," I should like to do what I have spoken on the subject are delighted at the they wished, because it would probably make much prospect of getting another hour and 20 minutes of

more difference to them than it would to us. We daylight. They think it will be worth taking all

used to begin at eight in the winter and close at the trouble to get that.

We have given that up in the last three or 2108. How many men do you employ ?-We

four years, and the workpeople prefer to finish at have a large number of women equally interested. six all the year round. In men and women, boys and girls, in the two works

2124. Have you tried opening at six and closing we have about 2,000.

at five ?-No. I think that it would be ex2109. Have you a large proportion of married tremely inconvenient if we were to do it, and other women in your employ ?-A fair proportion. I people were doing the regular thing—extremely think that from 15 to 20 per cent. of the women inconvenient. would be married women.

2125. As a matter of fact you would like to sub2110. With regard to them, the advantage of stitute the hours of six to five in the summer, but being able to leave off work earlier and getting more

you want to call them seven to six ?—I did not daylight would be a tremendous boon, would it

that I would like to. You must not say that

say not-It would be a very great help to them.

you know I would. You do not know it. I have They would like it very much.

not said it. I would not, because it would be

extremely inconvenient. Mr. Pearce.

2126. But I understand

you

to
say

that 2111. Could you give any estimate of the propor in favour of the Bill ?-It would be difficult for us, tion of your transactions abroad, and your even if we closed our offices and works half an hour transactions at home, in relation, for instance, earlier than some other people do. We must be to telegraphingo? —Naturally the transactions more or less uniform. at home enormously larger. You

2127. But I understand from

you

that thinking of ordinary transactions ?

in favour of the Bill ?-Yes, I am. 2112. Yes ?-I should think that 5 6

per

cent. 2128. And the effect of the Bill would be that, of our transactions would be with what you would although working the same nominal hours, you call foreigners.

would actually be working from 5.40 to 4.40 2113. Not more than that ?-I should not think Not at all. I am going to work still from seven to more than that.

six. 2114. There would be inconvenience in wiring 2129. You are going to work for the same hours internationally with four changes in April, would nominally ?-I am going to keep the same time there not ? One week it would be 20 minutes ? if the clock is altered, beginning in the morning at Yes, that would be so—20 minutes.

seven, as always, and finishing at six, but I shall 2115. Another 40, and another 60, and another get an hour and 20 minutes more daylight. That 80 ?-Yes.

is what I am after. 2116. That would last for nearly a month ? 2130. What you are going to do is, to do preYes.

cisely the same thing as if you said, “We will open 2117. The same thing would happen back again at 5.40 and close at 4.40 ” ?-Pardon me, it is in September ?-Yes.

totally different.

2131. Why

you are

are

are

you are

or

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE DAYLIGHT SAVING BILL.

105

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. BARTHOLAMEW.

Continued.

more

say that

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one.

Mr. Holt-continued.

Mr. Holt-continued. 2131. Why?-If everybody would do it, it I am sorry, but I have nothing to add to what I might have a somewhat similar effect; but if I were said as to that. to do it and other people were to remain where 2143. You said that they would use they are, it would be extremely inconvenient. I matches ?-Yes. would not attempt to do it.

2144. I only wanted to know why you thought 2132. That is perfectly clear. Then the use of they would do so. You

you

did not the Bill entirely depends on everybody keeping to mean that they would smoke more tobacco ?the same nominal hours ?-I think it largely No, I did not mean that. Please do not put me: depends on that.

down as saying that I think this Bill will promote 1233. And if everybody did not stick to the the smoking of tobacco, because I have not said same nominal hours the Bill would be pretty nearly that. wastepaper ?-I think that its utility would be 2145. I put you down as having said that you largely destroyed. What is the use of passing a think that under the Bill people will use more Bill if it is not to be acted up to ?

matches in the open air ?-Yes, but do be fair to 2134. Acting up to it consists in maintaining me. I said perfectly clearly that it had been the same nominal hours ; therefore you must be argued by my friends and commercial men that it of opinion that it is the nominal hours that attract was strange that I should be in favour of the Bill, people, and not the real hours ?—But the nominal because with less darkness there might be less hours will be the real hours. I am not going to consumption of matches. I say that there are change. I am going to begin at seven o'clock compensations in most things, and I think that and close at six all the time.

the extra daylight will probably compensate me. 2135. You are ready to begin at seven o'clock Ask me after two years' operation of the Act, and and you are ready to close at six, and you really do I will tell you exactly what has happened. not care what relation the terms seven and six have to the meridian at all ?-I do not know

Mr. Richards. that I do.

2146. You say that your hours now are seven 2136. As long as they are called seven and to six, and that the dinner hour is from one to six,' one time is as good as another ?—No, two ?—Twelve to one. We have two stretches of certainly not. If one time were as good as five hours, and one stretch of five hours on another, we should have the same amount of Saturdays. daylight all the time. It is because one time is 2147. Twelve to one is the only break that you bad and another is good that I want the good have ?-That is the only break.

2148. You have no break for breakfast or tea ? 2137. At the same time you would always call -No. it the same thing ?-I certainly think that that 2149. At what time do you lock out ?—Six. is the most convenient thing to do.

2150. Yes, but I mean in the morning ; up to 2138. I gather from what you have said that you what time do you allow the operatives to come think that the effect of the Bill would be to con in ?–They can come in right up to seven o'clock. siderably increase the habit of tobacco smoking ? We have tried it in every conceivable way, and - I did not say that at all.

we are on the very best of terms now that we do 2139. Yes, excuse me, you did ?-No, I cer not allow any margin. tainly did not.

2151. I was wondering what the effect would 2140. You said that you expected it would be if you made up your minds to open the factory tend to increase the consumption of matches ?-I at six, say, and have the dinner hour at 11. Mr. said that if

you

wished me to discuss my own par Holt does not seem to see the difficulty, and I ticular matter, I was bound to tell you that I should like you to explain the difficulty ?-If that should think that with more daylight there was confined to my works it would be extremely would probably be more consumption of matches inconvenient. I do not know how the wives, out of doors. That is perfectly true; but if you for instance, would fare if they toddled home at suggest that I am going to tell you that men, 11 o'clock and found their husbands coming home because they are out of doors, are going to smoke at 12 to get their dinners. With the dinner hour more tobacco than they will smoke if they are at the same time, if they are near they meet one indoors, I shall have to go into a very long story another. We have husbands and wives in our with you, because I have opinions as to that also. works, but a good many of our wives have husI have no grumbling with the men who smoke bands who go to work elsewhere. Those who are indoors--they are awfully good fellows-but near enough get home for dinner just after 12. there is not so much wind indoors as there is out. 2152. You would not be surprised if they I shake hands with every smoker, Mr. Holt, that revolted and refused to come at six, for instance ? I meet.

- They would revolt. They would not do it and 2141. I daresay that you do ?-And he is very could not do it. grateful to me.

2153. That is the reason, I suppose, why in 2142. No doubt he is; but from what you factory towns certain hours are fixed. There said, I rather gathered that you were of opinion are a variety of factories all working practically that the gentlemen who were watching football the same hours, and as far as possible members of matches would be smoking a good deal more the family who can get home to dinner all get than they would if they were indoors ?-No, I home about the same hour, or within a few did not say that at all. You put those words minutes of each other, and it is a convenience ? into my mouth. If I have not made myself clear -- Yes, it is obviously a great convenience. M

16

2154. With

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. BARTHOLAMEW.

[Continued.

an

Mr. Richardscontinued.

Mr. Willett. 2154. With regard to the building trade this 2160. That was the Council meeting ?-- That does not affect it, because generally the men was the Council meeting. I will see him on the employed on a job take their meals with them matter. and eat them there, and do not go home to dinner?

Chairman. -Just so.

2155. I have been a factory operative, and I 2161. He did not persevere with his opposition ? can say from my experience that whatever we do

---He found himself in a minority of one. we like to act in conformity with one another? 2162. Which is always uncomfortable I think it is absolutely necessary for the smooth position to be in ?--He took the usual course, and working of commerce that we should have uni

said no more. formity.

2163. You were asked by Mr. Holt whether you 2156. Do you think that if such a Bill as this thought that the effect of the Bill was likely to were passed by the majority of men, although they be nil if it were not acted upon by the large were not forced to adopt it, would respect the majority of the industrial organisations of this recommendation ?---Yes. I think that they country ?-Yes. would very soon find that they inust. I think 2164. I put it to you whether, if the Post Office that a large majority would begin by taking and the banks and the railways agreed to carry advantage of the operation of the Bill, and that out the provisions of the Bill wholeheartedly, they would be speedily followed.

you think that that would practically mean 2157. Especially if it was clamoured for by absolute

for the Bill ?-Absolute. I their operatives, as you found in the particular think that 95 per cent. of employers of labour instance with your own people who would immediately follow, and the remaining five anxious to leave off at six o'clock ?.-Yes,

per cent. would be cranks who always object

to any change and to taking any trouble. Chairman.

2165. Would you tell the Committee whether 2158. Were you present at the meeting of the you have any reason to assume that it would Council of the London Chamber of Commerce materially interfere with the arrangements of the when a resolution was passed unanimously in Post Office ?--My opinion would be that the favour of the Bill ?-I am extremely sorry that Bill would not interfere. I think that the Post I was not able to be there.

Office people would very soon settle down to the 2159. You have heard of it ?-I know that it altered circumstances, and would not find it was unanimously passed; or I think there was difficult. one objector. That is what I heard ; that in a 2166. You do not know of any other organisalarge meeting there was one who did not agree. tion beyond those that I have mentioned whose I would be very glad if Sir Albert Rollit could action would be a determining factor either for explain to us why he objects. I know him quite or against the Bill ?-No, I do not. well, but I really do not know what his arguments 2167. We are very grateful to you. may be. I have not met him on this matter, but I will.

(The Witness withdrew.)

success

were

Mr. LEON G. HAROLD LEE called in; and Examined.

Chairman.

Chairman-continued. 2168. Your occupation is that of a school hour and 20 minutes earlier, we should begin the master ?-Yes.

morning session at 7.40, and finish it at 10.40, 2169. You are the headmaster of the Raunds The afternoon session would then begin at 12.10. Wesleyan School, an Associate of the College of We should terminate school for the day at 2.40. Preceptors, a Fellow of the Royal Meteorological and the result would be that we should avoid Society, and a member of the British Astrono- working during the worst hours of the day, which mical Association ?-Yes.

would be given to the children for extra play. 2170. In what particular aspect of economic 2171. What are the difficulties in the way of life have you considered the provisions of the any school adopting those hours at certain times Bill ?- From the aspect of public elementary of the year, to suit their general convenience ?school life. We begin our morning session at I do not see any difficulties whatever. nine o'clock, and terminate it at noon. Then, 2172. Except use, wont and custom ?-I think we begin again in the afternoon from 1.30 to 1.45, that they would soon get into it. and terminate at four o'clock. The result is that 2173. Do I understand that yours is a nonin the summer months the temperature of the provided school, or is it a Council school ?-It rooms becomes very high-sometimes between is a non-provided school. 70 and 80 degrees. It was 80 degrees yesterday. 2174. There would be nothing to prevent you They are well-ventilated class-rooms. During altering the hours to suit the convenience of the the afternoon's work, especially from 2.30 onward children now without legislation ?-No, I do not to four o'clock, the temperature in the summer think there would be ; but I do not think the months is most unsatisfactory from the point of

children would come. view of the children. They are listless and 2175. They would not come ?-I think not, inattentive, and the art work is badly done because it would upset the family arrangements. through perspiration. If we were to begin an 2176. Mainly caused, I suppose, by the fact

of

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE DAYLIGHT SAVING BILL.

107

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. LEE.

[Continued.

Chairman-continued.

Mr. Holt-continued. of getting up at the ordinary hours ?-Certainly. 2189. You think that they would ?-Yes, I

2177. Whereas, if this Bill were in operation, think so, because they are proverbially early it would tend to make people get up earlier and wakers. Children wake early, and they are very consequently children would come earlier to often not allowed to get up, because their elders school ?-Yes.

are not up. 2178. What other material advantages would 2190. Do you think that it would be a good accrue to school life generally from the Bill, do thing for small children to have less time in bed ? you

think? We have heard of great advantages -Not for the very smallest children, but it would in the way of saving eye-sight from the fact that for children of from 10 years of age onwards. there would be less artificial light used. Does 2191. Do you think that they spend too much that apply to schools of the description of youis ? time in bed ?-I am inclined to think that they -No, it does not, because all our work is done do. in the daylight, even under the present circum 2192. I have rather a curious opinion. Your stances, so that it would make no difference there. young friend was mistaken, was he not, in thinking Then, again, the effectiveness of the school work that he would get his tea sooner after his dinner ? is undoubtedly in proportion to the amount of The alteration made in the small hours of the time that the children spend out of doors. For morning will not affect it ?-I thought it was instance, if it is a wet day, and there is no recrea two o'clock in the afternoon. tion time, the work is always done worse, because 2193. No, it is two o'clock in the morning ? the children have not had their run about out I was under a wrong impression. side, and I think that these extra hours that they could spend outside, instead of in bed, probably

Mr. Richards. would result in better work.

2194. You say that you come from Raunds ? 2179. What is the average age of the children Yes. in your school ?–13. There are very few beyond 2195. You are not governed much by factory 13.

regulations there, are you? Is there not a fair 2180. Would you tell the Committee whether

amount of out-door work ?- There is much less you have any particular choice as to the way of than there used to be. giving effect to the provisions of this Bill ?

2196. You think that the children would benefit, Do you mean with regard to the 20 minutes, and that you would benefit too, if you and they or the hour ?

could do your work in the cool of the morning ? 2181. Yes ?-Are the alternatives an hour and

I am certain of that; I am quite certain that it one hour and 20 minutes ?

will benefit the teachers very considerably. 2182. That depends on people's points of view. 2197. I suppose that you think that if this Some people have recommended a whole hour

Bill became law, it might encourage the parents a permanent alteration, and others have

and the factories to adopt it, and thereby give recommended an whole hour as a six-monthly

a six-monthly the schools an opportunity of working in conalteration ?-I think that four 20 minutes would formity with the new arrangement ?-Yes. be better, certainly, than the hour. If we only

2198. Did it ever occur to you what the effect take the hour, we shall lose 20 minutes. An hour would be if this Bill included four periods of does not seem a very great deal, but an hour 30 minutes, instead of four of 20 minutes ?and 20 minutes seems considerably longer. I do I think that that would be a little too much for not see that there is much to choose between the

the month of May, and for the month of August. four 20 minutes on the four Sundays, and putting It would be very well for June and July, I think. the clock on once. As one of my lads said, For those two months it would be better still. it would bring Sunday tea nearer to dinner, and

2199. The lift would be too much, you think. he preferred that. It would be an hour and

Now you say that the heat of the schoolroom is 20 minutes earlier.

sometimes 80 degrees ?-Between 70 and 80. 2183. He was a precocious youth ?—He pre 2200. That is a terrible state for children to ferred that.

work in ?-It is very bad, indeed. Mr. Holt.

2201. What would be the cause of that? Is 2184. You said that your children get out of it the structure? Is the roof merely an ordinary school at four o'clock ?-Yes.

slate roof?-Yes. 2185. In a summer evening there is enough 2202. One single roof?-Yes, one roof. All out-door daylight left for them, is there not ? the windows face south. The school is lighted They can play from four till half-past eight entirely from the south side. eight o'clock, and that is about as much as they 2203. Is the structure built purposely for a can do, is it not ?—There is a certain amount of school ?-Yes, but it is nearly 50 years old. time to come out of that for work.

2204. You believe that children work better 2186. Preparation ?-No, I do not mean pre- if they have recreation at mid-day—in the middle paration, but their home-work.

of the lessons, as it were ?-Undoubtedly they do. 2187. You said that they would get extra The effect can always be felt if the recreation, hours which they could spend outside, instead from some cause or other, is stopped. I refer of in bed ?-Yes.

to the quarter of an hour's recreation. Even the 2188. You contemplate that the children would quarter of an hour tells. go to bed, not at the same nominal time, but 2205. I suppose that you probably would agree at the same time in relation to the sun ?-I think that if children got up earlier they would want that they would have less time in bed.

to go to bed earlier ?-Yes. M

2206. There

as

16*

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. LEE.

[Continued.

Mr. Richardscontinued.

Chairman-continued. 2206. There are no frauds among children ? that it would slightly. I think that children They act very naturally ?-Sometimes.

from 10 years of age would spend less time in 2207. I am speaking of the bulk of them. their bedrooms. When they are tired, they generally want to go 2210. They would spend less time in their bedto sleep. There is not much attempt to sit up rooms, but they would not necessarily have less and watch the clock ?-No. I think that they sleep 1-No. would rather go to sleep when they felt sleepy. 2211. So that, on a general consideration of all

2208. I daresay that you have had experience the aspects of the Bill, you think, from the point of their falling asleep in school sometimes ?-In of view of school life and the 7,000,000 children the infants' department.

in elementary schools in the Kingdom, that the

benefits of the Bill would be unquestionably Chairman.

great ?-I do. 2209. Do you think that the effect of this Bill 2212. You have no objections to offer as regards would be in any appreciable degree to lessen the the plan proposed to effect the end of the Bill ?— number of hours of sleep enjoyed by children? No, I can see none. You just said, in reply to Mr. Holt, that you thought that they would have less opportunities

(The Witness withdrew.) of sleep, or remaining in bed ?-Yes. I think

Mr. WILLIAM WILLETT, re-called.

Witness.

Chairman-continued. 2213. I have now, Sir Edward, to ask you to the Association in Great Britain for the purpose be kind enough to take notice of a few statements of outdoor recreation would be very much apprewhich I have here by gentlemen who will come as ciated by them, especially in connection with the witnesses if

you

wish them to. I submit that it numerous clubs which are run in connection with would save the time of the Committee if I were the various branches of the Association. Any to read what they have to say, or, at any rate, arrangement that will bring more light and sunthe salient points of their statements ?

shine into young lives must be beneficial.” I

think that that might be put on the minutes, if Chairman.

you will allow it. The next statement which I 2214. Certainly ?—The first statement is by Mr. have to put before you is from the Musical Adviser Howard Williams, son of the late Sir George of the London County Council, Mr. Carl ArmWilliams, the founder of the Young Men's Christian bruster, of No. 155, Holland Road, W. I have Association, and a partner in the firm of Hitchcock, been to a lot of trouble to get these statements. Williams and Company, St. Paul's Churchyard. I want to save the time of the Committee. He is president of a dozen athletic, football, 2215. It is perfectly legitimate to read them ? cricket and rowing clubs, and Chairman of the Mr. Armbruster says:

“ The London County British and Colonial Union of the Young Men's Council engages about 90 bands each season to give Christian Association. He says : “My firm performances in the various parks and open spaces employs upwards of a thousand assistants. A con of London. The number of these performances siderable amount of work, particularly in the ware is between 1,200 and 1,300, and they are given houses, has to be done by artificial light as evening upon about 60 bandstands. The bands play for approaches. I have ascertained the amount of three hours at each evening performance. starting artificial light consumed during the summer at the commencement of the season, namely, in the months, and I find by calculation that if the middle of May, at five o'clock, and finishing at working hours had been adjusted last year, as is eight. These times gradually lengthen out week proposed by this Bill, my firm would have saved by week, until by midsummer day the bands in the period during which the altered hours would commence at 5.45 and continue until 8.45. The have been in operation a sum of £347. In addition hours are, of course, regulated by the available to this there has to be taken into account the daylight, as only upon half a dozen stands is it saving of the eyesight of a great portion of my possible to have artificial light. After midstaff, who have on dull days to work by the aid summer the time of commencing and finishing the of artificial light. While such artificial light we performances gets earlier week by week, until the use is electricity, I can speak from personal know end of the season.

Towards the latter end of ledge that in the case of many warehouses the August the performances commence at 4.15 and staff has to work by the aid of gas and other finish at 7.15. Many of the performances, illuminants, which have a very bad effect upon the especially those at the beginning and end of the atmosphere, and from the point of view of health, season, are to a very great extent wasted, because therefore, the change in the hours would in their for the reason above stated they have to take place case be most desirable, and tend to the improve- at such an early hour of the evening, and, in fact, ment of their health. The Young Men's Christian at some of the performances the audience consists Association, of which I am the Chairman of the mainly of women, children and cripples, the time British and Colonial Union, has a membership of the band playing being such as to make it of over 700,000, scattered over numerous districts impossible for the working-men to get to the at home and abroad. The additional hours which bandstands. The Council spends £12,000 per would be at the disposal of these young men in annum on its band performances, which are pre

sented

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