Chairman.

1866. You are Secretary and Manager to Morel Brothers, Cobbett & Son, Limited, of 210, Piccadilly?—Yes. I have been engaged in that firm for the past 20 years, and, as an employer of labour of the shop and warehouse class, I have had opportunities to study the different characters engaged in those occupations. In my early career I took considerable interest also in games and athletic sports, being captain of a well-known bicycle club, and have served six years in the Norfolk and Norwich Rifle Volunteers, and later on as a trooper of the Middlesex Yeomanry.

1867. How many men does your firm employ ?Between 50 and 60 men. They are of a class, of course, which are very numerous in this country, viz., the working and middle classes. I find the best business men are those who are country bred, or whose childhood has been spent in the outside suburbs or country. A lad who is fond of sports, athletics, gardening, or has a hobby connected with out-of-door occupation makes the best clerk or warehouseman. I have started lads who have been strongly recommended to me by masters of London School Boards, but they have not proved so successful as a boy who comes from the suburbs or the country. If, therefore, this Bill has the effect of sending the working classes to live in the suburbs (which I think it will) it will prove a benefit to the nation. The men in the employment of my company mostly leave their homes at about 7 a.m., and return about 8 p.m., our business hours being from eight to seven. They mostly retire to bed about 10 p.m. This means that they have only two hours of each week-day at their own disposal. If, therefore, daylight for, say, one and half of these two hours could be given to them during the summer months it would prove an inestimable boom. The Englishman by nature is a born gardener, and fond of out-door sports and hobbies, but he cannot practise these in the dark. A great deal has been said of the glorious sunrise, but I do not think if this Bill is passed many more people will see the sun rise at midsummer, but the great charm of the Bill is that it will give to the working classes and others a great deal of daylight between the hours of 8 and 10 p.m., and these are really their only hours of recreation. The more one mixes with the working classes the more one admires their enthusiasm for hobbies and sports. I have one man who rushes off to the Green Park every Thursday, and arrives just in time to hear the National Anthem played. Another can be found each Sunday on the banks of the Lea, fishing. Another, whose religious scruples will not allow him to break the Sabbath, can be seen gardening by lantern light. Others I have seen also starting at 8 p.m. for a bicycle ride in the country with their lamps alight. Another lad won an open lawn tennis tournament last year at Harrogate, and the only practice he had was about half an hour (whilst the light lasted) each. evening for three weeks before the event. Take any provincial town at the hours 8 to 10 p.m., and you will see the youth of both sexes congregating at the street corners in the dusk on summer evenings with nothing to do. A point I have not yet seen raised, but which I am certain

Chairman-continued.

[Continued.

will result by the passing of this Bill, is that there will be a great diminution in the number of illegitimate births. Everyone knows that after sunset it turns colder, and, although perhaps not dark, the temperature is not congenial to remaining out of doors without exercise. I notice that the railway companies are in favour of an alteration of the clock, and that so far there has been no organised opposition by the lighting companies. Perhaps these latter are wise in their generation, as any figures they might produce would be the greatest advertisement the Bill could have. Now I have taken the trouble to go amongst my employees, those who are married, to find out what they spend in artificial light. It is notorious that the working classes, having regard to their wages, are extravagant in artificial lighting. They mostly go in for the "penny-in-the-slot," and from inquiries I have made, I find that each house consumes about 2s. 6d. worth of gas per week in winter, and 1s. 6d. in summer. This usually includes the married couple and family and the front-room lodger. I therefore estimate that on the average there would be a saving of 1s. per week per house during summer.

Mr. Pirie.

An

1868. Per week?-Per week. With regard to the method of making the alteration, I believe that in theory Mr. Willett's suggestion of 20 minutes per week for four weeks is good, yet I think that one alteration of one and a half hours would be found to cause less confusion. alteration of the clock is in my opinion the only method of getting people to rise earlier, and if I were bringing this Bill before Parliament I should call it "A Bill to make the sun set one and a half hours later." Everybody I have discussed the Bill with has, after understanding its object, agreed with it and in favour of its being passed, and only require a date to be fixed by Parliament when to make the alteration to the clock. I am opposed to a change all the year round. A man will sit up after sunset, but he objects to get up in the dark. As a further point in favour of a longer day in summer, I find, personally, I do not require so much sleep during the summer months.

Chairman.

1869. You consider generally that it would redound to the advantage of the big shops and establishments in London ?--I think it would more than to any other class. We, as retailers, have to suit the business to our customers; we cannot alter our hours, we are so mixed up with all other trades.

Mr. Holt.

1870. Why do you think it will reduce the number of illegitimate births ?-Well, Sir, I think this: If you have it dusk at 10 o'clock instead of at eight o'clock the opportunities are less.

(The Witness withdrew.)

1871. I

called to this matter by a business friend in the railway train a few weeks ago. Up to then I had not given any serious thought to it. He kindly sent me on Mr. Willett's pamphlet on 'The Waste of Daylight.' I read this with great interest, and there seemed to be something to say in its favour. Any scheme that enables work to be done under better conditions is well worthy of the consideration of the British Parliament." Having read the paper, I must say that, if one difficulty can be got over, I think it will be a very good thing.

1893. What is that difficulty?-Moving the clock.

1894. What is your suggestion ?-I have made a calculation. We have worked Mr. Willett's scheme out on the basis of our present working. Perhaps I had better explain. We commence to work at eight o'clock in the morning. 1895. When you say we,' whom do you mean ?-I am manager of the Co-operative Wholesale Society's Boot and Shoe Works, Leicester. We employ 2,000 workpeople.

1896. That is what I wanted to get at?—I beg your pardon. Excuse me in this matter, but it is my first appearance.

1897. No harm is done. We shall be very glad to have your evidence?-I represent the Co-operative Society, whose headquarters are at 1, Balloon Street, Manchester. They have works at various parts of the country, and amongst their works are the shoe industry works. Leicester, as is well known, is a centre of the shoe industry, but I am speaking for myself now.

1898. You have no authority to speak for your organisation?-No. I have no authority to speak for my Directors. As I have said, we have worked Mr. Willett's scheme out on the basis of our present working. We commence at eight o'clock in the morning, work until the mid-day meal, recommence at two o'clock, and work till 6.30 p.m. We find that we should save only in the second week in September, 2 hours, and 24 in the third week in September, five hours. This, multiplied by 2,000, which is the number of workers that we have, would save 15,000 hours of artificial light. That is our present working. But if the time of commencing work could be lifted one hour earlier for the whole year, we should save the following hours from the use of artificial light. I have taken the working hours of 1908 as a basis.

1889. From eight o'clock to 6.30?—Yes; January, 23 working days, half an hour a day, 11 hours. February, 19 working days, half an hour a day, 9 hours.

1900. I do not think you need to go into all these details, because, if there is really that saving all the year round, we can work that out perfectly. I would point out to you, with regard to the suggestion of putting on the clock for an hour for the whole year, that for practically 6 months you do not get any extra daylight. You see that? Daylight does not commence practically, to all intents and purposes, until about eight during the winter months?—Yes. It would affect five months during the year.

1901. Yes? To put it briefly, the total hours

Chairman-continued.

[Continued.

are 65. If it was lifted up an hour a day, multiplied by 2,000, which is the number of our workers, it would give us 131,000 hours of daylight saved.

Mr. Richards.

1902. Artificial light saved?—Yes, artificial light saved. Our people, I may say, prefer to commence working earlier in the morning. We have sometimes, unfortunately, to work over time, and they always prefer, if possible, to work the overtime in the early part of the day

1903. They prefer to work the overtime in the morning?-Yes, they prefer to work the overtime in the morning.

1904. What is it that prevents your association from starting earlier?-The hour of commencng is the custom of the trade in Leicester.

1905. Are there any material hindrances besides the sentimental impediment of custom ?—I do not think so.

1906. You, having considered the matter in all its bearings, are of opinion that it is as well to have an alteration of one hour for the whole year? -Yes, that is my opinion.

1907. Would you recommend this being done. by legislative machinery or by organisation among the general body of the workers in the country?—I think that it should be done by Parliament.

1908. You consider that the advantages of putting on the clock would be very material?Yes, I do.

1909. In more ways than one ?—Yes, in many

ways.

1910. You think that it would be conducive to immense economy in the use of artificial illuminants?—Yes; that is so, it would be economical.

1911. Previously to this meeting of the Committee, it has been suggested that if you get workmen to leave off work earlier it might be conducive to their spending more money in getting about, and that what advantage you would gain in one direction you would lose in another. Do you think there is anything in that contention ?I do not think so. I do not think that it would be a temptation to working-men. They would have more leisure at the end of the day, which is necessary, and I believe as a rule they would use it to their own advantage.

1912. You desire that Parliament should issue forth an edict that work should commence at a certain hour ?—Yes.

1913. Rather than the provisions of the Bill, which leave everybody at perfect liberty to do exactly as he likes? I think that it would be more beneficial.

1914. Have you considered the prejudice that a compulsory arrangement of that sort would bring about? Yes. We practically now have to work within certain specified hours by Act of Parliament.

1915. But let us assume that the Bill passes, and that some sort of alteration of clocks is agreed to by Parliament without compelling anybody to begin work earlier or leave off earlier or to make any arrangements other than those which are suited to the person concerned. Do you not

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. Richards-continued.

think that that would be a far better method of proceeding ?-Well, it is always better to get the consensus of opinion of the people affected rather than to proceed by Act of Parliament. I concede I concede that at once.

1916. Have you considered that the compulsion as regards 6 months of the year would be practically nugatory during the months that the sun rises late ?-Yes.

1917. How would you get a regulation of that sort to work? If Parliament were to say that people were to begin work at six o'clock in the morning you could not expect them to begin at six on a dark winter morning, and if they did so there would be a great loss of artificial light ?-As far as our industry is concerned, one hour would be sufficient; that would be seven o'clock, you

see.

1918. During the winter months it is pitch dark at seven o'clock. During four months of the year it is practically pitch dark then ?—Yes, that is so. It is dark for a certain part of the year at that time.

1919. So that the effect of a compulsory Act would be practically nugatory as regards those months? Yes, as far as saving artificial light in those months, that is so.

1920. Therefore certain other alterations have to be made?—Yes.

1921. So that I put it to you that the suggestion that you make is not in all material respects practicable ?-Perhaps I have not looked at it from that point of view.

Mr. Pearce.

1922. Carrying that a little further, of course there are great numbers of men who work in shifts? --Yes.

1923. Who work in shifts of time like miners? -Yes.

1924. Any Parliamentary rule in regard to the hour for beginning work would be quite inappropriate to them?--Yes, that is so.

1925. It might suit the boot trade in Leicester to begin an hour earlier, but you would hardly recommend that a special law should be made regulating one industry ?—No, I do not recommend that.

1926. The present hours for beginning work in all the various trades everywhere are the result, are they not, of practice and convenience? Is that not so ?—Yes, I should say that is so.

1927. The effect of which has been that we have gradually ruled our time for beginning work by the darkness of winter. Is that not so ? We begin rather later? Yes, in some trades that is so.

1928. Almost all over the country we begin later, and we neglect the early morning hours in summer?-Yes, that is so.

1929. Have you read the Bill ?—Yes, I have read the Bill.

1930. You see that the Bill itself says nothing about the hours for beginning work? It says nothing about daylight even, except in the title ?-Yes.

1931. The proposition in the Bill is to make a common rule about beginning an hour earlier on Sunday mornings in April and September.

M

Mr. Pearce-continued.

97

[Continued.

Is that so? Do you understand that?—Yes, that is the Bill.

1932. Now, I want to ask you whether in your judgment, not limited only to your own trade, the hour chosen in the Bill is the right hour for making a change?—The early morning, I should think, is the best time.

1933. The early morning on Sundays?—I ain afraid that there would be a little difficulty if you altered the clock on Sundays.

1934. There is nothing in the Bill about altering the clock. I am speaking of the shortening of the hours and the lengthening of the hours in April and September on Sundays. Do you agree that Sunday is the best day ?-It would not affect us, of course.

1935. But do you agree that Sunday is the best time for the change ?-Yes, I do agree.

1936. Have you heard the suggestion that the change should be made during the hours of morning service on Sunday, making the service shorter on Sunday mornings in April, making up for it by making them longer on Sunday mornings in September ?-I have not heard of that.

1937. You have not heard that suggestion? -No, I have not heard that.

1938. Would you consider that alternative a better one than a change in the night ?-I consider the morning is the best time to change it.

1939. The early morning, that is to say, in the night ?-The Bill suggests two o'clock, I think.

1940. Between two and three o'clock ?—I think that would be the best time, and if the difficulty of time could be got over I think it would be a very good thing.

1941. Have you thought about the length of the change whether it should be in periods of 20 minutes or not ?-I think it would be better if it could be one change.

1942. And that one change of one hour? Yes, that one change a change of an hour.

Mr. Holt.

1943. I understand you to say with regard to the hours that you work at your boot factories that you begin at eight and finish at 6.30 ?—Yes.

1944. All the year round ?-All the year round. 1945. You think, and your workmen, I gather, think too, that it would be better to begin work a little earlier ?—Yes.

1946. I presume that you have a trade association ?-Yes.

1947. That association probably rules a good many things?-Yes, it does rule a good many things.

1948. We have had plenty of evidence that other trades have altered their hours by consent. Now, what on earth is there to prevent your trade association from passing a resolution that you shall begin at seven o'clock and end at 5.30 ?-I do not know that there is anything to prevent that.

1949. Has that resolution ever been proposed ? -I do not know; we are not members of the Federation.

1950. But if you did adopt the hours of seven o'clock to 5.30, you would then be working almost

15

exactly

exactly the same hours as dock labourers. Now, if you want to work at earlier hours, would it not really be much simpler to call all the people in your trade together and propose to this Federation that the hours should be altered ?-You see, we have no standing with the Federation. The Co-operative Boot Manufacturers' Association are outside the Federation.

1951. But would it not be much simpler for boot operatives, who also, no doubt, have a trade union, to do as I suggest? They have a trade union, have they not?-Yes. I do not know what their opinion is on the matter. They have a very strong organisation.

1952. It would not be at all a difficult thing, if there was general agreement in saying that it was the intention to work from 7 to 7.30. There would be no great difficulty, would there?-No, there would be no great difficulty.

1953. Does it not strike you as rather unreasonable that because you want to alter your hours from 8 o'clock to 7 o'clock, other people should have any amount of pressure put upon them to alter their hours from 7 o'clock to 6 o'clock ?I was giving my views on the matter as it effects our trade. Each trade has its peculiarities, of

course.

1954. Quite so. You said, I think, that if this was done, working-men would have more leisure at the end of the day ?-Yes, that is so.

1955. You do not contemplate that they would go to bed any earlier, do you?-They possibly might. They would get tired an hour earlier, would they not?

1956. But if they went to bed correspondingly earlier they would not have more leisure?-They would have more daylight.

1957. They would have more daylight, but not more leisure. If they went to bed an hour earlier they would not have any more leisure ?-It depends on whether they go to bed, of course.

1958. The obtaining of more leisure entirely depends upon their leaving off work an hour earlier and going to bed at the same time?—Yes, that is

80.

1959. The only difference if you leave off work earlier and go to bed earlier is that you get more leisure in the daylight ?-Yes.

1960. You would not get more leisure in the total?-No; that is so, but you would get more leisure in daylight.

1961. They would not get more leisure in the total?-That is so.

Mr. Richards.

1962. May I ask how many people you have at the Knighton Works?-We have 1,550 there, and 450 at Dunn Lane, which is under the same control.

1963. Do the Enderby works come under you? Yes, there are about 200 there.

1964. What hours of work have you known in the trade? For instance, when you first knew the trade, what were the hours of work then? We commenced at 6.30 in the morning in the summer months, and at 8 o'clock in the morning in the winter months.

Mr. Richards-continued.

[Continued.

1965. You had practically three breaks during the day?—Yes.

1966. Breakfast, dinner and tea?--Breakfast, dinner and tea.

1967. Now the trade has abandoned two of the breaks?—Yes.

1968. They have abandoned the break for breakfast and the break for tea?-Yes, we have only one break per day.

1969. In the old days did you find any difficulty when you wanted certain work done, if you just gave the order that it must be done, in getting it done. Supposing that you gave work out at six o'clock at night to a man who worked at home, and that you wanted it by eight o'clock the next morning, you did not bother, did you, about the time he got up ?-No, we did not trouble about that.

1970. What was the reason why half-past six was abandoned ?-I think it was when the whole of the industry came under factory control instead of the work being done at their own homes.

1971. Had not the breakfast hour something to do with it? It might have been a determining factor, but I think that the other was the most influential factor in the case.

1972. You used to start work at half-past six in April, and go on up to September?-Yes, commencing the 1st April and leaving off in September.

1973. If the suggestion that you make of starting work one hour earlier in the shoe trade, say at seven o'clock, were adopted, and you adopted the same principle as is now adopted, would not that necessitate some men getting up at six o'clock and having breakfast at half-past six o'clock. Those who live out of Leicester and have to come to your place would have to get up at about four o'clock ?-Not quite so early as that.

1974. Many of them have, I know, 40 or 50 minutes' walk. Then you would have to use artificial light in the winter mornings? We should have to in that case, of course.

1975. Usually the shoe trade is not a busy trade in the winter ?-That is so.

1976. You only wish that it was. Operatives wish that it was ?-That is so.

1977. They wish that it was busy in the winter and that it eased off in the summer?-Yes, we should like to reverse it. We may be working towards that.

1978. You would like to alter the seasons? -Yes.

1979. You think that there would be no difficulty if a general rule or a law was come to, that should be observed by everyone, which necessitated a man having to get up and start work at seven in the morning or six in the morning and have breakfast before he went. You do not think there would be any difficulty in that ?-I do not think so.

1980. With regard to the advantages which you suppose would ensue, there is not the least doubt that many of your members are allottees ? -Of what?

1981. They have gardens ?—Yes, I mentioned that in my written remarks, but I did not have time to read it.

1982. The