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LIST OF WITNESSES.

Thursday, 7th May, 1908. PAGE Mr. William Willett – - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1

Thursday, 14th May, 1908.

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Dr. W. N. Shaw - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 153

Tuesday, 23rd June, 1908.
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Mr. William A. Appleton

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1. Do you exercise any profession ?—Yes, I am a builder. 2. In London ?–In London, Brighton and elsewhere. 3. Could you tell the Committee whether anybody besides yourself is promoting this scheme * —No one else. 4. You are doing it entirely yourself?—Yes. 5. I think it will be more convenient if you would kindly give the Committee a general statement of your views as regards the expediency and the practicability of the adoption of your scheme 2—I am quite right in saying that I entered upon this scheme entirely by myself, but, as I sit here, I have the honour to be able to speak in the name of others besides myself, for I have given to each Member of the Committee a copy of a manifesto, which has been signed by a number of gentlemen, whose names I ask leave to read, so that you may see that I do not come here to speak only in my own name, but in the names of many eminent men in various walks of life. 6. I do not think it is necessary to read all these names ?—I should like, with your permission, to read some of them, because I should like to impress the Committee with the substantial character of the demand which is being put forward for an alteration with reference to the hours of the working day. 7. Do not you think it would suit your purpose if the names were copied and appear in a list, unless you wish to call attention to any particular names?—The reason why I want to read them out is that I want to ask you as we go along which of these gentlemen you would like to appear before you as witnesses. I do not know exactly how you propose to conduct this inquiry, but I assume that you will require to see certain witnesses 2 8. Obviously?–And here we have a number of men whose names I should like to read, and ask you to name any particular person that you

Chairman—continued.

would like to see before you as a witness, in order that someone might make arrangements with them to come. I will only read the principal

names here. 9. Yes, read the principal names, please ?— Sir William Anson, Warden of All Souls’ College, Oxford; Mr. Robert Armitage, M.P., ex-Lord Mayor of Leeds; Mr. Owen Balmforth, Mayor of Huddersfield, on behalf of the Huddersfield Borough Council—so that I speak here not only on behalf of the Mayor of Huddersfield, but on behalf of the town of Huddersfield, a town of 100,000 inhabitants; Mr. Godfrey Baring, J.P., M.P., Chairman of the Isle of Wight County Council; Sir Thomas Barlow, M.D., Physician to the King. I have a letter from Sir Thomas Barlow, which I shall probably read later on. If you think any of these gentlemen should be called, perhaps you will make a note as I go along. Mr. Gilbert Bartholomew, Chairman of Bryant and May's; Mr. John H. Bell, of His Majesty's Nautical Almanac Office; Mr. Bennie, of The Clyde Machine Tool Company, Glasgow, a large Company in Glasgow; Mr. Bevan, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Barclay & Company, Limited, Bankers; Archdeacon Bevan, Rector of Chelsea ; Mr. George Billings, Mayor of Hackney, and Member of the London County Council, on behalf of the Hackney Borough Council; so that I speak also on behalf of the population of Hackney, 220,000 inhabitants, a resolution having been passed by the Borough Council; Sir William Bilsland, Lord Provost of Glasgow; Sir Edward Brabrook, late Registrar of Friendly Societies; Mr. John Brigg, Director of the Leeds and Liverpool Canal; the Bishop of Bristol; Mr. Tootal Broadhurst, Director of the London and North Western Railway Company, and late High Sheriff of Lancashire; Mr. Brodie, M.P., partner in Findlay, Durham and Brodie; the Right Hon. Sir John T. Brunner, Bart., M.P., Chairman of Brunner, Mond and Company; Sir William Bull, M.P., Chairman of J. W. Singer and Sons—I am 3 missing Earl of Clarendon; Dr. Clifford, of Westbourne Park Chapel; Mr. Alexander Cross, M.P., senior partner of Alexander Cross and Sons; Captain the Wiscount Dalrymple, M.P.; the Hon. Mr. Justice Darling; the Hon. Mr. Justice Bargrave Deane; Mr. A. Denny, of the great firm of Denny Brothers, shipbuilders, Dumbarton; Mr. Dixon, managing Director of the Fine Cotton Spinners and Doublers’ Association; Mr. Docker, Chairman of the Amalgamated Carriage Company, Birmingham; Judge Edge; Judge Emden; the Bishop of Exeter; Mr. Farquharson, President of the Timber Trades Federation of the United Kingdom; the Right Hon. Sir George Farwell, Lord Justice of Appeal; Mr. Forster, M.P.; the Hon. Sir Charles W. Fremantle, late Deputy Master of the Mint; Sir John Gorst; Mr. Corrie Grant, M.P. ; Mr. Grindley; the Hon Walter Guinness, M.P.; Sir Alexander Henderson, Chairman of the Great Central Railway Company; Mr. Charles Higginbotham, on behalf of the Calico Printers’ Association; Mr. John S. Higham, M.P., ex-Mayor of Accrington; Mr. John Hodge, M.P., Secretary of the British Steel Smelters, Mill Iron and Tinplate Workers’ Association; Mr. Henry Holloway, of Messrs. Holloway Brothers, Builders and Contractors; Mr. Ebenezer Howard, founder of the Garden City Association; Sir Alfred Jones, senior partner of Elder, Dempster & Co., and President of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce; Lord Kinnaird, Lord High Commissioner to the Church of Scotland; the Earl of Kinnoull; Sir Philip Magnus, M.P.; Sir Charles McLaren, M.P., Chairman of the Metropolitan Railway Company; the Earl of Meath; the Metropolitan Gardens

7 May, 1908.] Mr. WILLETT, F.R.A.s. [Continued. Chairman—continued. Chairman—continued. missing a number of Members of Parliament; the the Royal University of Ireland; Sir Arthur

Association ; Wiscount Milner; the Hon. Mr. Justice Neville; Lord Newton; Sir Henry Norman, M.P. ; Sir Charles Owens, General

Manager of the London and South-Western Railway; Mr. Pike Pease, M.P.; Mr. Howard Pochin, Director of the Standard Engineering Company, Leicester; Mr. Priestly, M.P., ex-Mayor of Bradford ; Professor Rambaut ; Radcliffe Observer, Oxford; Sir William Ramsay; Mr. Rees, M.P.; Major Renton, M.P.; Mr. Stuart Samuel, M.P.; Lord Sandys; Mr. Henry Slattery, Chairman of the Board of Directors of the National Bank; Mr. Philip Snowden, M.P., late Chairman of the Independent Labour Party; The Bishop of Southampton; Sir Benjamin Stone, M.P.; Mr. R. N. Stubbs, Chairman and on behalf of the Winsford Urban District Council; I speak for them also, a resolution having been passed; Mr. J. E. K. Studd, President of the Polytechnic, Regent Street; Mr. St. Loe Strachey, Editor of the Spectator; Mr. Austin Taylor, M.P.; Sir Edward Tennant, M.P.; Dr. Traill, Provost of Trinity College, Dublin; Alderman Sir George Truscott; Dr. Warren, Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University; Lord Wenlock; Mr. G. E. Bridge, whose name does not appear on your list, Mayor of Bournemouth, and on behalf of the Bournemouth Borough Council, who also have passed, a resolution in favour of this proposal. That makes four Borough Councils or Town Councils that have passed resolutions in favour : Huddersfield, Bournemouth, Winsford and Hackney. Lord Castletown, Chancellor of

Conan Doyle; and Mr. Gwynne, Editor of the Standard newspaper. I think that will be enough. There are others here. 10. I think, for the present, that will do for reading the names. Will you please go on with your main evidence 2—Then I have prepared here a small sketch, showing what is taking place to-day. The sun rose this morning at about 4.20. The sun would be at its zenith at noon. Between 4 and 12 noon is, roughly, about eight hours. Most of us, I suppose, had breakfast at about 9 o'clock. Five-eighths of the youth of the sun, if I may term it so, five-eighths of its age to-day was already gone before, probably, most of us entered upon our duties, or our pleasures of the day. That small diagram (handing in the same) shows how much of the youth of the day, if I may so term it, has already gone. And I submit that the early hours of the day provide the joyous hours of the day; there is more beauty in the youth of the day, as there is in the youth of Nature; in all youth we find the best and most attractive features of everything, whether it be in trees or anything else. So it is in the early part of the day, I submit; the early hours of the day are the more joyous hours of the day, and of those early hours that diagram shows how much has gone. This reflection has been borne in upon me, owing to the habit I have had for the last 33 years of being on horseback at 7 o'clock in the morning, wandering about chiefly by myself. I have noticed that no one practically is about, an odd labourer going to his work, a postman, a milkman and a sweep are about all the persons you meet in the early morning. 11. I do not like to interrupt you, but I think the principal point with regard to which the Committee would like elucidation is with regard to the objections which are raised to the scheme. I think we may take it for granted that everybody approves of the idea of increasing the daylight; the Members of the Committee can put questions to you later on as to that ; but it will save the time of the Committee very considerably if for the present you will concentrate your attention towards explaining or surmounting the objections that you know have been raised to the alterations that you propose. For instance, I would like you, if you can do it now, to give the Committee some evidence as regards the validity or otherwise of the objections raised by the clock-makers ?— May I then take it for granted that the Committee is of opinion that the change is desirable 7 12. For the present, certainly, you may take it for granted ?–I have brought here a number of proofs of witnesses who will be prepared to give you evidence. I have also here a letter from Sir Robert Ball; I have asked him to give evidence. 13. The Astronomer Royal ?–He has been Astronomer Royal in Ireland; he is now Professor of Astronomy at the Observatory, Cambridge. I wrote, and asked him, as I asked everybody. I not only asked the leading men whom I know to be in favour of this scheme, but I have written to every man who has made objections, and asked him to come and give evidence against the scheme; because I want that. It is not for me to give evidence

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE DAYLIGHT SAVING BILL.

7 May, 1908.]

Chairman—continued.

evidence against it; I want these men who object to come and give evidence against it. I will read what Sir Robert Ball says: “Dear Mr. Willett, I find it very difficult to fill up in the way you desire your admirable schedule. The points you make seem so obvious that I hardly see how any testimony is required for them. I might say (if anyone doubted it) that the astronomical principles are quite sound, and that the particular arrangement of dates that you have chosen is the best possible (probably no one will doubt this)”—but they will—“ and I might explain how standard time could still be maintained for all scientific purposes. I might also minimise the difficulty (if anybody raised it) about self-registering barometers, and other instruments which are consulted by the public. Beyond this, perhaps, I have hardly anything to say that might not be said by the man in the street. Of course, if I knew what arguments the opponents will bring forward, I might have more to say. I am not a tramway shareholder, but I am a gas company shareholder, so I hope you will not expect me to answer 15 or 16. . . . When will the Committee want us? I shall be out of reach unavoidably the greater part of next month.” So, if the Committee desire, and I think they will, to see Sir Robert Ball, it should be at an early date. I have written to the Astronomer Royal, Sir William Christie, and to Sir Norman Lockyer. The Astronomer Royal has not, I am sorry to say, replied to any of my letters. I have written to him three or four times, and he has not replied to one. Sir David Gill I have also written to, and have had no reply. These are opponents. 14. It will be all the more necessary to ask them to come and give evidence?—Exactly. I wish them to come and give evidence. Against them I put Sir Robert Ball, Sir William Ramsay, Professor Rambaut and Professor Turner, of

Oxford.

Mr. Pearce.

15. And the representative of the Nautical Almanac Office 2–Yes, and Mr. Bell, of the Nautical Almanac Office. It is rather on different lines, but still it is desirable that, as a scientific man, he should be heard. The Chairman asked me just now on the subject of a letter which was before you from some horological journal ?

Chairman.

16. From Mr. Wright 2—Which suggests that the alteration should be an alteration of one hour, and should be a permanent alteration of one hour. I can hardly think that any reasonable man would advocate that ; it does not seem to me to be reasonable. The sun rises in mid-winter somewhere about 10 minutes past 8 H the proposal of the Horological Institute were adopted, the sun would not rise until 10 minutes past 9 in mid-winter. It seems to me that it is sufficiently unpleasant for us to rise in the dark, and have breakfast very often in the dark, as we do now; and to think of putting that time on an hour, seems to me to be quite out of the bounds of common sense; but still there is a strong feeling for it.

"yThe change need not apply during the

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winter months?—No, but the gentlemen who has written that letter seems to suggest that. 18. Can you tell us whether the suggestion that we should adopt the Mid-European time for six months of the year, commencing in March and ending in September, would seriously conflict with your own desire to save daylight 2—It does to this extent : that in making any alteration with regard to the commencement of the hours of daylight, you must bear in mind the working population. Their lot is already sufficiently hard; they have to rise much earlier than most of us to go to their work; and I maintain, at least I feel it myself, that it is a distinct burden to have to rise in the dark to go to your work. The earlier you have to rise, the greater the burden is, if it is dark. If you put an hour's alteration on for six months in the year, that is to say, from the 1st of April, the sun rises on the 1st of April now at 5.37; it rose this year at 5.37; it would, therefore, not rise if you move it on an hour, till 6.37; and, I submit, that any arrangement that is made should provide for the rising of the sun at 6 a.m.; because a great number of men commence work at six, and a great many more commence at half-past six. In my own trade, the time now is 6.30—it used to be six; that is the earliest time. In winter, of course, it is later, but in summer they commence at 6.30. But there are people who commence at six; consequently, although they may have light to go to their work (there is a certain amount of twilight, of course, before the rising of the sun-dawn we call it—which affords them light to go to their work), I submit that any change that is made should provide for the rising of the sun at about six. Consequently, if you adopt the suggestion of Mid-European time, you ought not to commence the alteration until certainly the 12th or 19th of April. I am taking Sundays here. On the 12th of April the sun would rise at 6.14; on the 18th of April it would rise exactly at six. You would lose the benefit of the extra daylight during 18 days, probably, at the commencement; and similarly with 18 days at the end, because you would have to set the clocks back again; so that you would lose a little more than a month. 19. What have you to say about the difficulties that were very sorely felt with regard to International intercommunication ?—I should deny that on the balance there is any difficulty; because, admitting difficulties to one set of individuals, there are advantages to other sets of individuals. The man who does business with New York will undoubtedly suffer disadvantage; on the other hand, the man who does business with Shanghai, Calcutta or Bombay, will have an advantage. Or, if you take the East, for Perth or Fremantle, for Sydney, of course, it would not make much difference; but all people dealing with the East will have an advantage; people dealing with the West will have a disadvantage; consequently, I put one against the other, and I say that there is no argument to be made from that. 20. Have you considered the difficulties that would confront railway people, in regard to the arrangement of their time tables?—I have considered it, and I am very glad to say that the 3* Railway 7 May, 1908.]

Mr. WILLETT, F.R.A.s.

[Continued.

Chairman—continued.

Railway Companies are coming round to my view, as I will explain to you directly. You see, by my proposal, the present time tables will remain exactly as they are, with the exception of train services communicating with the Continent; that is where alone a difficulty will come; and that difficulty will only last until the Continental Railways, or the Continental Governments take a leaf out of our book, and themselves use as much of God’s gift of light as we do. If they alter their times to correspond with ours, we shall be as we are; and I claim that if this scheme is enacted and is a success, the Continental nations, Germany at any rate, will have wit enough very quickly to follow suit, as will also America, which will get over the difficulty that you alleged just now with regard to transactions with the West. If, on the other hand, it is a failure, which I am absolutely certain from the letters I have had, and the notices that have appeared we need not fear; but supposing it be a failure, in six months it is put right. It does not last for ever; in six months we shall have seen the result, and if it is a failure, it will be at an end. If it is a success, certainly the other nations will follow, and if they follow, there is no inconvenience with the Continent.

Mr. Pirie.

21. You mean that the scheme can be tried tentatively?—I do not say that, because if I said that, it would indicate that I had some doubt as to its success.

22. But for those who have doubts, you admit the possibility of a tentative trial 2–Perfectly, because of course I am strongly in favour of a six months arrangement. We all know that in one half of the year Nature gives us minimum of eight hours of light, and in the other half of the year she gives us 16 hours of light. Our arrangements are the same all the year round. It must be an uneconomical arrangement we have now.

Chairman.

23. Have you anything further to say as regards the general aspect 2–With regard to the clocks, if we may keep to that point—because there are a great many points made by the horological people—they ask for an hour's permanent alteration, and they also do that because they object to the continual alteration of clocks. I should like to refer to a lecture that was delivered at a meeting pf the United Wards Club of the City of London, - E. W. Huxtable, Esq., President, in the chair, by Mr. St. John Winne, of the Standard Time Company. In my pamphlet there appears a letter from Mr. Hope Jones, of another standardising company. Both these gentlemen advocate the electrical synchronisation of clocks, and this lecture was delivered by this gentleman in relation to an article which appeared in the Times, on January 8th, last headed “Lying clocks”; and this is what he says, “The opening words of the Times article emphasise a fact which does not appear to be common knowledge, that down to the present day no horologist has produced either a clock or watch, from the finest chronometer downwards, which is free from error and does not require more or less frequent correction.”

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Chairman—continued.

24. Does that article suggest the possibility of any automatic adjustment of the clocks 3– The value of this lecture is that the gentleman who delivered it probably had never heard of my proposal; at any rate I do not know him, I have not seen him, and I have not spoken to him; but if you read his lecture you will see that it is wonderful how his arguments tell in favour of my proposal; that is to say, with regard to the alteration of all the public clocks, because that is one of the mechanical difficulties to be overcome, so that they shall be in harmony, so that they shall synchronise, in fact. And Mr. Hope Jones, whom I venture to think you should see as a witness as well as this Standard Time Company’s representative, will tell you that it is perfectly easy. This is Mr Hope Jones's letter: “It would be quite possible to arrange for the mere depression of a lever in a master clock twice a year. . . to let the master clock accomplish the 20 minutes per Sunday advance in April, and the 20 minutes per Sunday retardation in September quite automatically, and at trivial cost.” You understand that the master clock controls all the other clocks. Mr. Hope Jones told me himself that he has 5,000 clocks under his charge, and that he could move them all on without anyone noticing it, if he wished, 20 minutes; and that is how he says the time is altered now on the great Atlantic liners like the “Mauretania.” and “Lusitania ”—that the whole of the clocks throughout these ships are now controlled from the captain's bridge by his system; and from what I read here in this lecture by Mr. Winne, that is also what the Standard Time Company do. The London County Council I may tell you, has already moved in the matter; in fact, the London County Council on February 13th, last addressed a letter to the Common Council of the City of London with reference to this matter. This is what they wrote: “With reference to the expediency of legislation being promoted to obtain authority to secure that public clocks shall be adjusted by synchronisation or otherwise, and asking for the views of the Corporation thereon; also inquiring what action the Corporation has taken under Section 65 of the London County Council (General Powers) Act, 1903, with regard to the provision and maintenance of public clocks.” You see the objection has already been discussed as to the synchronising of clocks. If a clock is going to be moved two, three or five minutes, it can be just as well be moved 20 minutes. Mr. Winne says: “Synchronising on a small scale certainly adds a little to the cost of winding and maintaining clocks, but upon a large scale the addition would bear a very trifling ratio to the very large sum which is now spent without attaining the object aimed at.” “The Glasgow Corporation in 1905 delegated to a Committee the work of inquiring into the best means of securing a reliable public time service. The most exhaustive investigations were made by the Committee, which visited Berlin, Antwerp, Brussels, St. Gillies, Paris, and London, inquiring into and reporting upon the systems in use in America, Bremen and Stettin. Finally, the Committee had no hesitation in expressing the opinion that Berlin and Antwerp possessed the most satisfactory and complete time services.” “Germany, our great commercial

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