close without serious inconvenience. We have been able to make the changes indicated without much inconvenience to ourselves. As soon as our clients got to know what we had done, they remembered it, and it has not made much trouble. With regard to our works, our hours there are from eight to 5.30 for our girls, and 7.30 to 5.30 for our men, and there again the trouble comes in of the dinner hour, in altering those hours. We insist upon our girls and men having their breakfast before they come to our works; the girls work from eight to 12.30 and the men from 7.30 to 12. If we tried to open our works in summer an hour or two hours earlier than we do at present, the men and girls could not go on such a long time without the dinner hour being altered. In other words, if we opened at six they would have to have their dinner at 10, and as other works might not do the same, it would upset all the workman's arrangements in his own home. That precludes us from doing anything there. We have also, in connection with our works, a recreation club, where our employees go after working hours, and I am told by the managers, who are responsible, that the change proposed in this Bill would be immensely appreciated by our employees because of the extra time that it would give them for recreation in daylight after their work hours.

1769. Did you hear Sir George Livesey's evidence just now ?-Yes, I can only say that I entirely disagree with it.

Chairman-continued.

1770. Is there not something to be said for his view, for instance, that, as his men start work at six o'clock in the morning, any putting on of the clock, and working earlier than that hour, would be objectionable from the point of view of the workman. Suppose you had workmen who wanted to come in at six, and the new proposal was to come at five, might they not conceivably very strongly object to that?-Possibly they might, and possibly conditions in London here are different to the conditions with us. Our town is comparatively small, and our workpeople can get out into the country very quickly; they like to start as early as they can and finish as early as they can.

1771. What have you to say as regards the mode of bringing about the change?-Well one's first impression would be that one change only would be best, but, on considering the matter over, I rather think the suggestions of the Bill are the best. In our works we have shift work, that is day and night work. Where you have three shifts of eight hours each, you can understand that it is much better to alter those shifts 20 minutes at a time, than to have, perhaps, a change of an hour and 20 minutes at once.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Chairman.

1772. You are the Chief Clerk to the Superintendent of the London and North Western Railway, and Chairman of the Executive Council of the London and North Western Railway Temperance Union ?-Yes.

1773. How many men does that Union number? -17,531.

1774. And you are also Chairman of the London and North Western Athletic Club?-Yes, the "London" only, Sir.

1775. The London part of the athletic club of the London and North Western Railway?—Yes. 1776. Which numbers how many?-About 800. 1777. Have you carefully thought out the proposal of this Bill and the effect it would have more particularly upon the economy and the comfort and the general hours of working of the railway men?-I have, Sir.

1778. You have; and what is the conclusion at which you have arrived?-When you speak of "comfort," Sir, what do you mean?

1779. Develop your views as to the Bill generally; give your main evidence, say what you think of it ?-I think that if the men were able to get home earlier they would have very much greater opportunities for engaging in athletics, or anything of that kind, than they have at the present time. Speaking from the athletic point of view, we have a number of teams who engage in what we call inter-office competitions. These matches take place in the evening, and last

M

Chairman-continued.

night I was on our ground when some of these teams came down to play; they were only able to begin about half-past six, consequently they could only play until about a quarter to eight; even then the light would not be good, and they have to play very hard and very fast to get anything like an innings each.

1780. Do you say that is the average time at which the majority of the workmen leave off work in London-half-past six ?-Well, you see, they have to get from their work down to their ground.

1781. How long does that take them on an average?--I should think perhaps half an hour to three-quarters of an hour.

1782. Should you think it would be a great boon to all those who are engaged in sportsathletics to have some sort of an adjustment of the time-table?-A very great boon, indeed, Sir.

1783. Have you any men who practice musketry firing ?-Yes.

1784. And do you find that the present hours of leaving off work entail considerable inconvenience as regards the carrying out of that part of their patriotic duties?-It does, of course, cause inconvenience, although the company are kind enough to give them facilities for shooting in what we might call office hours.

1785. What is your opinion as regards the methods of carrying out the provisions of this Bill?-I think the small instalment would be best. 1786. You

14

28 May, 1908.]

[Continued.

Chairman-continued.

1786. You prefer the small instalment to an entire alteration for six months of the year?I think so.

1787. That is your fully considered view, is it ? -I think so; yes.

1788. Have you considered the matter along with any of your representative men, or is it your personal view that you are expressing ?-My views are held by quite a number of our men. I sent Mr. Willett's circular or pamphlet to each of our district secretaries in connection with our Temperance Union, who in turn sent it round to our branches, and, although we have not taken a census of the opinion, in a great many cases the secretaries have replied saying that the men are quite in favour, a large majority of the men.

1789. What is your opinion as to the effect of the Bill on the promotion of temperance. Do you think it would bring about a voluntary earlier closing of public-houses generally?—I do not think the men would want to go into publichouses at all.

1790. You could not tell the Committee, perhaps, as to whether it would bring about an earlier closing of clubs, about which so much has been made in the recent licensing discussion ?-No, I have no information on that point.

1791. You have no evidence to give upon that point ? No, Sir.

1792. All you say as regards the temperance aspect of this question is that the mere fact of the men being given opportunities for healthy and rational exercise is that they will not want to go to public-houses ?-I think so; strongly .

1793. But you cannot say whether it would bring about an earlier closing of public-houses on a voluntary basis ?-No, I cannot.

1794. You cannot speak to that ?—No.

Mr. Pearce.

1795. You have in mind that the public-houses are closed by law at a definite hour?—Yes.

1796. And that, if that hour were shifted, the public-houses would have to close by law at the shifted time?-Yes, I appreciate that.

1797. You follow that ?—Yes.

1798. So that, so far as the natural light is concerned, or natural twilight, they would be shut up an hour earlier than they are now, or thereabouts ?-That is so.

1799. Are the facilities your company gives for shooting given in the summer time ?-All the year round.

1800. And how much time do they give to their men?There is no actual fixed time. If

Chairman.

Mr. Pearce-continued.

there are any matches to be "fired," the men would just go down and shoot their rounds and go back to their work.

1801. Without objection ?-Without objection. 1802. Then the giving of those facilities shows that, if they could have more time allotted them by an arrangement of their work in the summer, there would be no occasion for special facilities? -I think there would not be, and, of course, there would probably be more matches, because they would arrange "inter-station " matches, or things of that kind.

Mr. Holt.

1803. What sort of men belong to the Temperance Union?-All grades, Sir, from the general manager downwards.

1804. It includes porters ?-Oh, yes.

1805. Not merely clerks ?-Oh, no; signalmen, porters and everyone.

1806. Do you happen to know what are the usual hours that these men keep? I suppose they come on duty at very different times? Yes; I cannot give you any information as to that.

1807. For instance, these men who play in the cricket matches in the summer begin at half-past six ?-I was speaking of clerks then.

1808. What time do these men go to bed ?What time they go to bed now I cannot say.

1809. You do not know what their habits are as regards that ?--I should think they go to bed fairly reasonably early.

1810. To what hour do they work?-They work, perhaps, to about half-past five.

1811. When do they begin ?-Nine o'clock; but the work varies in different departments.

1812. I suppose so; in fact, you have no regular hours? We have no regular hours.

Chairman.

1813. Still, you think you can speak for the generality of your men as to the decided advantage which would accrue to the working classes of the community by the adoption of the provisions of this Bill? I am sure they would be very glad to see it, Sir.

1814. More especially with reference to those men who do not leave off work until about seven o'clock in the evening ?—Yes.

1815. And who consequently do not know what it is to have the pleasure of sunlight recreation ?-That is so.

(The Witness withdrew.)

1816. You are the representative of the Great Central Railway Company?—I am the General Manager of the Great Central Railway Company.

1817. And do you come here with the sanction of your Board ?-No, I am not representing the Board, but the Chairman of the Company, Sir Alexander Henderson, is, I know, in favour of the scheme.

good?-I am in favour of an alteration of the hours of the clock, but not quite in the way suggested by Mr. Willett.

1820. Will you tell the Committee in what way you desire to see the alteration made ?-I would prefer an alteration of one hour in April, and to see it altered back again in September, say the third week in April and the third week in September, but I would rather have the 20 minutes than nothing at all. I think if there is to be any disadvantage in the alteration it will be at the time of the alteration; and if you alter eight times a year, you will get eight times the amount of disadvantage (if there be any) that you would by an alteration of twice a year only.

1821. I do not know whether you heard or read the evidence given here by the representative of the London and North Western Railway. He seemed to be of a contrary view to you, he thought he would prefer a gradual alteration. I think I am correct in saying that ?—Yes.

1822. He preferred a gradual alteration to a wholesale one ?-Yes, I saw that, but I do not think the position of the London and North Western Railway is quite the same as that of some of the other companies. I think some of those companies who have a Continental service and Continental connections would he in such circumstances that they would find some inconvenience that does not apply to the London and North Western Railway, and that is where I see any difficulty that is likely to arise; that is to say, in connection with Continental services.

1823. And do you think it is a scheme which would save your company a good deal in the way of artificial illuminants ?-No doubt it would, but that is not the point so much, I think, as the advantage there would be in conducting the far greater proportion of dangerous work on railways in daylight. We find that in the winter time we get far more, a great many more, accidents than we do in the summer, and at night we know there are more accidents; one would naturally expect it to be so. If we drive into daylight the formation of our goods trains, the shunting and so on, that goes on in the night after the traffic has been brought to the various stations throughout the country during the day, if we could perform those operations in daylight it would, I am sure, be a very great advantage all the way round. The work would be done quicker, and there would be less liability to accidents.

1824. It has been suggested that, owing to the greater activity to the general life of the country which the provisions of this Bill would give, it might lead to the prolongation of hours that are worked at present by the railway people. Have you anything to say to that?-I am certain it would not happen. We are under continuous pressure from the Board of Trade, and from the men, to reduce the hours; and I am certain that if anybody attempted to increase them, well, I know what would happen, I know it could

Chairman-continued.

I can see that there would be more employment on railways would be by the fact that possibly there might be more trains run in the evening, say between 9 and 10 by the then clock; and it might be that the trains now running between those hours would be an hour earlier. The trains between seven and eight would be also required. It might be there would be more trains between 9 and 10, and that identically the same number of trains would have to be run between seven and eight. If that happened, and there were more trains required, we would have to employ more men, but there would be no prolongation of the hours of the Company's men.

1826. From your experience, do you consider the difficulties connected with Continental traffic at all insuperable to those who have to conduct the traffic?--I think that an hour would involve very little difficulty in the arrangement of the time-tables; I think that could be got over. There is no particular difficulty about that; but if you altered it four times in the month I think there might be a little inconvenience to the public, because it would be so difficult to show on the time-tables exactly what was happening. A time-table, to some people, even now, is not a very lucid matter, I am afraid. If you have four changes made in a month, you would get a good deal of difficulty.

1827. Do you consider that the Bill would give railway workmen greater opportunities of recreation and mental and physical exercise than is the case at present?-Undoubtedly; I think it would conduce to the health of the staff, and would reduce the liability which is felt now, more particularly in the winter months, by the various societies which railway companies have, provident societies, sick funds, and those sort of things. We find in the winter a good deal more sickness than in the summer, not altogether brought about by darkness, of course.

1828. Generally speaking, you think the public would "tumble" to the change just as easily as they do when they travel across the Continent or to America, where there are three different changes of time?-Yes; four in some instances; I found four in Canada. I may say it seemed to me quite a natural thing to get accustomed to the change of an hour.

Mr. Holt.

1829. I suppose the railway companies are looking to the increased traffic as one of the advantages of this alteration ?-I do not think there would be a very great deal of traffic; it might conduce to more suburban traffic, perhaps.

1830. We are told that one of the great advantages would be that people would go further afield, and play more cricket and more golf, and get similar amusement; and that necessarily means more suburban traffic?-It might; I do not think it necessarily follows. It depends on where the golf course and the cricket club is.

1831. Most of these courses-golf courses and so on-are round about big towns, some little way out of town, and it is one of the advantages that people would go into the country who cannot otherwise get there; and that must mean an 14*

increase

Mr. Holt-continued. increase of traffic to the railway companies?— Well, it may mean an increase of traffic; but it is more likely to be an increase to the tram traffic. I am afraid we have lost most of our suburban traffic.

1832. The people would get more tramcars ?It would mean more tramcars, I dare say.

1833. If this took place it would have the effect of neutralising danger by your being able to do more of the dangerous work in daylight ?I should think so.

1834. And the difficulty, I suppose, is because at present you cannot get goods from your customers early? You see, if warehouses are open up to a certain time, you have to collect up to a certain time; you cannot get those goods into your warehouses and station yards before a certain time.

1835. It has nothing to do, I think, with the line; it is not waiting until the line is more clear? -No, it is getting up the traffic from the public. If we can get it an hour earlier, we can perform our shunting operations earlier.

1836. With regard to suburban traffic, if it was an hour later, how would that affect your staff?-We should have to employ more men if we had to run the same number of trains between seven and eight as are now running between eight and nine. If we should have to run more trains between eight and nine, it means the employment of more staff.

1837. Supposing you run more trains between eight and nine, and there would be a reduction of trains between four and five o'clock, would that mean more staff?—I do not think it is likely to occur. The only possibility I see is that people would remain in the country longer, and we might possibly have to run the trains we are running now, and also a train an hour later.

1838. I asked the London and North Western Railway representative about the train at Windermere which would be spoilt under this arrangement. If after the Bill passed, it ran as at the present

[Continued.

Mr. Holt-continued. moment of time, it would be practically useless, and the people would not get their day in the country. He at once said: "I shall put on another train an hour later, and we should very likely knock out the 4 o'clock trains in the afternoon." Would that be likely to occur down in the country? -It is very possible.

1839. What would be the effect on the railway service if you added more trains?—If we had to run more trains, we should have to employ more

men.

1840. That would not be general?—Of course I imagine that the London and North Western Railway, or any other railway company, would not knock off that train until they had had some experience as to whether the traffic had actually altered very much in that particular hour.

1841. Supposing traffic carried on in this way : that you had the same number of trains in the day to begin with, running at the same nominal time as they do now, but going on an hour later, and that reduced the service in the middle of the day, what would the effect of that be on the staff? -It would not affect their hours.

1842. Would it not compel them to go on an hour longer?—No, the hours of the men are fixed practically by agreement with the men, either eight, 10 or 12 hours, and you could not make them more than that.

1843. Supposing you had a slack time in the middle of the day, and a busy time later, what then?-We have got it now.

1844. Suppose that is accentuated ?—I do not think that it would make any difference to the hours of the men any way. It might involve the employment of more men. That is possible.

1845. Consequently it would be a bad look-out for the railway company if they got the same total receipts only in the summer?-I am sure the saving of artificial light would counterbalance anything of that sort.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Chairman.

1846. You are an officer of the Salvation Army of 27 years' standing, you have charge of its literature, and you are actively associated with the social and spiritual operations of the Army, and at one time you were in direct charge of its work in London for a period of three years, is that so ?—Yes.

1847. Have you travelled about a good deal? -Yes, during that time I have travelled a good deal, twice or three times round the world.

1848. Have you travelled about with General Booth ?-Yes, sometimes.

1849. What have you got to say in regard to this Bill which we are now considering?We view it (I am speaking now of the representatives and leaders of the Army) as a measure calculated to bring about certain very useful results; for instance, we recognise the value of daylight as a physical benefit to the community,

Chairman-continued.

and especially to the denizens of alleys (as in Scotland), closes, courts, and so forth. We think that, with the facility that this Bill will ensure, these people will enjoy more daylight and that it will be a decided advantage to the morality, the health and the spirits of these people. We further think that the tendency of the Bill is to encourage the habit of early rising, and it will certainly add to the number of those who will avail themselves of the increasing facilities arising from outdoor exercises. Take, for example, the increasing number of "rambling" clubs Saturday afternoons and evenings and on the half holidays. The advantage of the extra hour's daylight will be immense, especially amongst people who work a little later than others, and we further think, speaking from our own side of things, that the measure will be advantageous to technical education. to technical education. There is a large number

on

of

of young men and women who are anxious to avail themselves of evening classes.

1850. Continuation schools?-Continuation schools and technical schools. That is another feature of the Bill that commends itself to us, and further, as it will affect the work of the organisation with which I am identified, it will be of immense service. We have, for instance, about 2,000 to 2,500 musicians in London alone, all over the country 18,000 to 20,000, and if this Bill came into operation it would enable them to carry on their practices in daylight, and spend a larger amount of time in the daylight in the evangelistic work in the streets, and of course it would have an appreciable effect in money; we should save gas light and it would help us generally, I think, in those directions.

1851. Have you taken any opportunity of consulting your most trusted coadjutors with regard to this Bill?-Yes, I have brought the matter before General Booth, also the chief of the staff, who is in more direct touch with the leaders of the movement in England, also on the Continent, and I have personally made some effort to ascertain their views, and I have found there is a very remarkable concensus of opinion in favour of the Bill, and as they are in touch with the classes to whom I have referred, I think you may take it that the Salvation Army would view this change as valuable altogether.

1852. Do you propose to take any sort of plebiscite of your principal workers? If there was a division of opinion we should certainly, for the advantage of securing an accurate judgment, do so; but I do not think it is necessary, seeing that our representatives (officers), both here and

on

the Continent, think it is a desirable change.

1853. What sort of people are they who help you in your Salvation Army work? What I want to know is whether they are workers of different categories. I take it they are of different occupations, men whose hours of leaving off work vary very considerably?—Yes.

1854. Can you give the Committee any idea as to the different categories ?—I think a safe and accurate answer to that question, Sir, would be that they belong to the various grades of the working classes We have a very small proportion of the professional and clerical, and certainly very few of the leisured, classes. I think you may safely conclude that our workers and congregations are recruited from the working and the poorer classes.

1855. Now we come to the question of the mode of procedure; have you considered that ?-Yes; we have looked at that. We are inclined to think that the method proposed by Mr. Willett is on the whole the most likely to be acceptable. We think that the English people are more conservative than radical-that four bites of a cherry are better in this case than one of "altogether," we think that that is a very workable method, perhaps the best that could be devised.

1856. You do not think that the fact of four changes in April and four changes again in September would rather set people's backs against the

Chairman-continued.

Bill?—I do not think so; I think there would be a prejudice, rather; the prejudice would be strong against one change. I think so, and I think that the discomfort arising from one change would be more pronounced than the discomfort arising from four changes.

Mr. Holt.

1857. You have discussed this question with your friends abroad?-Yes, on the Continent only.

1858. Have you ever asked them at all what they think of the probabilities of the Continental nations doing the same thing?--Yes, I have. To put it in another form, I would put it in this way: I have asked the question: How do you view the change? and they answered that question rather on principle, on the line that any method that enables the worker to enjoy more daylight is an advantage, and they would hail a similar arrangement if it was carried on in Holland and also in Germany.

1859. Were these gentlemen, who gave this opinion in Holland, Dutchmen or Englishmen ?They were purely natives-Dutchmen.

1860. Then it may be that, if this was done here, what they would be inclined to do would be to get up an agitation in their own country to do the same thing?--I have no doubt of it. In a large portion of Holland, as you know, they have adopted Greenwich time, and therefore I think the influence of our people would be all on the side of adopting the change there. I think so.

Chairman.

1861. I want to ask you another question. How would you view a reform of, say, an increase of a quarter of an hour a year for five years, making the alterations still more gradually than the alterations suggested by the Bill?-I think it is a little too gradual.

got

1862. And once the community have accustomed to the new order of things, then to revert to Greenwich time ?—I am afraid that is just a little too slow, Sir.

1863. You think it is too fantastic a proposition? -Yes.

1864. Have you anything to say about Japan? There is something in your précis about that?Nothing further, I think. The usual experience one has in travelling from East to West, or vice versa, is that the change effected from day to day is not noticeable.

1865. You mean to say that you have noticed the ease and facility of going from one time to another during your travel across the Continent? -Yes, and more especially in America; it is very noticeable there.

(The Witness withdrew.)

856. You