23 June, 1908.]

Chairman-continued.

Nottingham-there are probably 7,000 of themtheir ordinary time for commencement is four o'clock in the morning.

3133. Why so early?-The idea is that there is so much capital locked up in the machinery that they must work it 20 hours out of the 24; so they work shifts, and continue from four o'clock in the morning to 12 at night. Personally, I think a great mistake is made that if they utilised the daylight, and occupied less of the darkness, they would save what they think they lose on capital; because I know there are great losses in connection with light where a great deal of light is necessary.

3134. Does that apply to the winter months as well?-It applies to the winter months as well as to the summer months. I think these people might object to having to commence an hour earlier in the morning.

3135. May I put it to you that it is not necessary that they should commence an hour earlier in the morning ?-I think that if both employers and workinen were wise they would take care that they did not commence an hour earlier.

3136. This Bill does not compel anybody to commence work earlier or leave off earlier ?-It does not, but they would have the impression that they might be compelled to work earlier.

3137. What are the other disadvantages ?--I do not know that there are any other disadvantages from the workmen's point of view. I am not attempting to deal with anything that might arise from international arrangements or banking arrangements, but from the workmen's point of view I do not think there are any other disadvantages. But I would like to say that, in my opinion, it would, I think, meet with a good deal of opposition, if you decided that the time gained should be gained by the 20 minutes per Sunday, because if that was done, many people get up by their watches, and they would forget to alter their watches at night, and the result would be that they would be late at work on the Monday mornings in April; and while they would be forgiven once, probably the second or third time would mean discharge and cause a great deal of unpleasantness. In September, when you went in for your recessions, the people would get there 20 minutes too soon, and I am not certain that that would not give more trouble still. I should be inclined to think that the better plan would be to make one alteration only at the beginning of April to get the whole 60 or 80 minutes. 3138. For the four or five summer months? Yes, so that you would have during April, May, June, July and August the full period of time.

3139. And what would you say to an alteration of half an hour one Sunday and another half hour on the following Sunday or Sunday fortnight ?That would be preferable to an alteration of 20 minutes per Sunday.

3140. Would it be preferable to an alteration of one hour at one step ?-No, I should say that, on the whole, the advantage would be in favour of the one complete alteration. It would not be wise to put men in that sort of difficulty where they would be likely to be late for their work more than once in the month.

Chairman-continued.

159

[Continued.

3141. Have you considered that a mistake made of one hour would be far more serious than a mistake made of half an hour?—Yes, from our point of view it would be; but not from the point of view of an employer, who would forgive one offence when he would not forgive two.

3142. So that your criticisms as to the disadvantages of the Bill resolve themselves into a negative apprehension as to any mistakes that might be made in regard to altering clocks ?— Yes.

3143. That is the only disadvantage that you see?-That is the only disadvantage that I see to the general mass of workers. There would be particular instances of hardship, perhaps, but to the general mass I do not see any other disadvantage.

3144. In that case it would obviously be a very serious hardship?—Yes.

3145. Is there anything else you wish to say? -No.

Mr. Pearce.

3146. You did not tell us your actual position? -At the present time I am Secretary of the General Federation of Trade Unions. I have been, of course, a workman in factories, and I am speaking to a great extent from my own personal experience in factories.

3147. What Trade Unions does the General Federation include ?-125 of the largest Trade Unions in Britain; there are 700,000 members.

3148. Have you a list of them ?—I could supply you with a list; I could not give you a list from memory; I could mention the Amalgamated Society of Engineers.

Mr. Richards.

3149. You might say all except miners?— All Unions, except miners and railway servants.

Mr. Pearce.

3150. Do you say that, in your judgment, the view which you have expressed would be the view of your Federation ?-I have not consulted them, but from expressions I have heard I should say that the general opinion would be in favour of the proposals, because of the increased opportunities for recreation and for work in their gardens.

Mr. Holt.

3151. You told us that a large number of operatives with which you are acquainted work from seven in the morning till seven in the evening? -Yes.

3152. What sort of operatives are those ?-I should say that is a very common set of hours: from seven in the morning, where there are factory workers.

3153. You mean factory workers ?—Yes.

3154. Those do seem rather long hours, but you say that they are ordinary hours ?-Common ordinary hours; they would have two hours off at least for meals in the day.

3155. And what stops those people; what is to prevent them by voluntary arrangement working from six to six in the summer ?—In some instances they have already made a volun

tary

tary arrangement with the employers, and are working from six to half-past five, because they save their tea half-hour.

3156. What prevents that being done more extensively? Sometimes an employer objects to any dislocation of his arrangements, and you would have to face a strike if you wanted to compel him to alter arrangements of that description.

3157. But there is nothing, of course, to prevent the same employer, after this Bill is passed, saying: "I am going to work the same hours; I would like you to alter to from eight to eight "? -There would be nothing to prevent him, of course, except pressure from other industries, other occupations, which would be beginning at different times.

3158. But you tell us that there have been a good many cases in which people have had the hours altered ?—Yes, they have made voluntary arrangements. A great deal depends on the employer himself. If he is a reasonable man, especially if, as in some instances, he takes a little interest in flowers and gardens himself, there would be no difficulty.

3159. You think, evidently, that the man who works from seven to seven might prefer to work from six to six; but are you quite sure that the man who works from seven to five would prefer to work from six to four ?-I am not certain that he would.

3160. Is it not likely that he might say that seven to five would be better hours ?-You would find instances where men would say that; but I should say, on the whole, they would prefer to get a longer evening, when they would be able to do more as they chose.

3161. You told us that the people who have begun already to work at six o'clock, or earlier, would probably not care about the Bill?-Some might object.

3162. Are there many people who begin as early as six o'clock ?—I should say in Lancashire that is a customary hour in the mills; in the summer months, anyway.

3163. Now, tell me this: If the hours were altered as you suggest from seven to seven to six to six, is there not a good chance that the small children of the working-class households would be kept out of bed?-Later at night, do you mean?

3164. Would not this probably happen. I suppose that the small children from three to four years old, and the whole household probably, wake up together?-A child usually wakes up very much earlier than the parents, and wants to go to bed very much earlier.

3165. But if the parents were employing the summer evening in recreation and gardening, is there not a serious chance that the children would be kept out of bed?-I do not think so, because among the working classes the children soon learn to look after themselves; they would go to bed on their own account if they felt tired and sleepy. 3166. These little ones of three or four years old? Should isolated cases occur, they would creep into some correr and go to sleep. They do not have nurses to put them to bed.

Mr. Holt-continued.

[Continued

3167. That is exactly the point I was raising. If they had nurses the thing would be quite simple, because the nurses would stay at home and put them to bed. You do not think that the father and mother would be tempted to stay out during a fine summer evening and omit to put the children to bed ?-No, not any more than they omit to put them to bed now. I do not think it would make any difference at all.

Mr. Richards

3168. Which end of the day is it, in your experience, that operatives of all classes and all kinds, either male or female, choose for recreative purposes?-The evening.

3169. Supposing that there were the two alternatives put to operatives where females are usually employed: starting at eight in the morning and finishing at six; which do you think they would prefer those hours from eight in the morning to six in the evening; or, if they had the alternative, from six in the morning to four in the afternoon?-I think they would take the earlier hours inevitably.

3170. Do you think the Federation, as such, would be wise if they were to attempt to obtain this extra daylight by the usual guerilla warfare of a strike or lock-out, in order to obtain the method of going to work earlier in the morning; or do you think they would prefer to take a legislative enactment ?—I think they would be most unwise to attempt anything of the kind on those lines; it would dislocate industries in all parts of the country.

3171. And then, as far as the lacemakers are concerned, working from four in the morning to 12 at night, do they work in shifts ?-Yes, one shift works from four to nine and one to six; and the other works from nine to one and from six to 12.

3172. Which is a trade arrangement ?-A trade arrangement.

3173. You do not do the same as they do in the hosiery trade in Leicester, where in some big factories with expensive machinery they work in two shifts, or three shifts, and work all night ?—They object to the three-shift system. 3174. So that there is a stoppage of the mills from 12 o'clock to four ?—Yes.

3175. Then do you think if this Bill became law that there would be any advantage in removing the dinner hour from 12 to one to 11 to 12; or 12 to one, as the case might be, instead of from one to two, as it usually is ?-No, because already you see in many trades it is from 12 to one; in most of the building trades it is from 12 to one.

3176. Do you think that the public-houses closing an hour earlier would aid or encourage earlier retirement among the working classes ?No, not unless you made a good many other alterations, too.

3177. Of course, if this Bill were carried, it would encourage all national matters to be regulated one hour earlier ?—Yes.

3178. That is, everything that Parliament had any control over ?—Yes.

3179. You think, on the whole, that the opera

Chairman.

3180. Going back to the disadvantage to which you drew special attention, as to men or women forgetting to alter their clocks, do you not think that that disadvantage would be considerably obviated by prominent notices being put up in the factories and by proclamations by public clocks ?-Yes, you could reduce the evil considerably by proper notification.

3181. So that, really, the disadvantage, compared with the benefits that you think are likely to accrue to the working classes, is so infinitesimal that it is hardly worth taking into account? It is not very important, but I thought I had better mention it.

3182. Do you consider that the advantages

by resort to legislation; could it be done by private arrangement among employers and employed ?-No, you could not get a general arrangement by the interference of the individual or of an individual union.

3183. Have you had any opportunities of making a general consultation among your constituents as to the principle of the Bill?—No, I have not.

3184. Not by a plebiscite ?-No. there has been nothing done of that description. You must form your opinions by what you hear when you are among them.

3185. You have not heard one way or the other ?—No, we have taken no vote either way, nor has it been suggested that we should.

(The Witness withdrew.)