2774. Very much so. Another point that you laid special stress upon is the late arrival of the night mail from Paris to London in the morning? -Yes.

2775. Is it not also the case that this night mail is the longest of the whole of the services (although it is the most important mail) in the 24 hours between Paris and London ?-The London ?-The time is eight hours and 20 minutes. The afternoon service via Boulogne is six hours 45 minutes— that is quicker.

2776. And is there any reason at all why in place of this night service of eight hours and 20 minutes, if sufficient stress and importance was attached to it, there should not be a similar mail service at night between Paris and London which could be also carried out in six hours and 45 minutes, with a possibility of in future reducing it if you adopt modern methods ?--I presume that

if a train can run in six hours and 45 minutes in the day-time it could also run in that time at night. 2777. A passenger train, and still much more so a mail train ?—Yes.

2778. Therefore I do not think I am wrong in coming to the conclusion that these difficulties are somewhat imaginary, or at any rate susceptible of being overcome ?-Whatever acceleration could be effected in the mail service would be so much gain to the commercial community; but whatever acceleration was obtained in that way would be obtained all the year round, and it would still remain the fact that the time available would be one hour and 20 minutes shorter in summer than in winter. If the service can be accelerated it ought to be accelerated quite irrespective of any change of the clock; and the point that we are looking at is the effect of the change in the clock in

summer.

2779. The point we are looking at, you will excuse me, as dealt with by Mr. Holt, was the fact that the foreign mails would reach the provincial towns in England too late for the business day. I have endeavoured to point out that if the mails were accelerated as is possible, the provincial towns would still be served as capably as they are being served now ?-It would alter pro tanto the zone in the country which would be most seriously affected by it. It might be that if the alteration was sufficient, it would be Leeds that would be affected instead of Manchester; or, if the alteration was greater, it would be Newcastle; but there would at each place be that curtailment in summer of an hour in dealing with the Continental mails. Any acceleration of the mails would merely alter the zone of the country in which the curtailment would have a most serious effect.

2780. But the curtailment only has effect in proportion as it affects the loss of the business day or the loss of the business interval? Yes, it would mean that a different list of places would lose the business day than those which lose it at present, but there would still be places that would lose it.

2781. As regards the time of arrival of mail trains in this country, at the present moment the M

2782. And they are able to adapt themselves to these late arrivals and overcome the difficulties of them? As regards London, a sufficient margin is left to allow of a certain amount of late arrival and still to deliver Continental letters by the first delivery.

2783. I am not talking of Continental letters. just now; I am talking of the home mails. You do get over the difficulty of late arrivals ?-If the arrivals are late the letters are dealt with and distributed. There is a certain amount of public inconvenience ; it means that the delivery is

later.

2784. As regards the duty hours of the men, do the men always keep to the same duty hours, or do they take it either a week, or a fortnight, or a month about?-There is almost every variety. There are some duties which alternate on alternate days, there are some duties which alternate by weeks, and there are other duties which alternate fortnightly.

2785. But a large number alternate ?-Yes. On the other hand, there are a large number of fixed duties. It is difficult to make a general statement, because the variety is so great.

2786. I had not the pleasure of being here at the outset when you gave your evidence. I do not know whether you expressed any personal views from your knowledge of the Post Office generally. If you could give them I should be very glad to know them? My personal views are that it is very morning in summer; but it appears to me it would desirable that people should get up earlier in the be far better to arrive at that result by a change of should consider would be very likely to be dishabits than by a change of the clock, which I

counted after a certain time.

2787. Then you are not of Lord Avebury's opinion, that to ensure a change such as you think desirable legislation is requisite ?-I would rather try the other method first. I see, for instance, no

reason why in my own office, if there was a general desire to that effect, the hours, which at present are for the majority of my clerical staff in the office from 10 to five, should not be changed at once to from nine to 4 in the summer.

Mr. Richards.

2788. Or from eight to three ?-I should think if they were changed to from eight to three there. might in some cases be difficulty as regards train. service; but if a large number of offices agreed to change their hours to from eight to three, no doubt the railway companies would adapt themselves to it. It is not infrequent, I may say, where there are a considerable body of men coming in at some very early hour in the morning, as many of them do in our own service, that they go to the railway companies and say," Will you not put on a train for us at such and such an hour? and very often, if the railway companies find that a sufficient number of men come, they put on a train to suit their hour.

Chairman.

2789. Do you suggest that to bring about a 20* universal

18 June, 1908.]

Chairman-continued.

universal change of this description it would be at all practicable, or does it present any prospect of success, not to resort to legislative machinery? It seems to me that a very large change could be brought about by voluntary effort, and that that has this advantage: that you can then change the people who want it and not change the people who do not want it. You have very large sections of the population who begin work at six o'clock in the morning, or even earlier, and it seems to me undesirable, for the benefit of those who would profit by a change in the clock, to practically force those who would not profit to be subject to the same change.

Mr. Richards.

2790. Some of them would strike if you do that; and you would not advocate a strike, surely. among operatives because employers wished to upset their constitutional dinner hour. It is an institution with them, and if they were going off work at all hours, and their sons and daughters, it would be intolerable ?-I am assuming that it would not be done unless there was an opinion in favour of it among the workpeople themselves.

Chairman.

2791. I may point out that there is no element of compulsion in the Bill at all?-I quite understand that. There is this element of compulsion that you would force people to accept the earlier hours unless they change their hours in winter and summer. If it is possible for them to change their hours in winter and summer for the purpose of avoiding too early an hour, it seems to me that it ought to be equally possible to change them for the purpose of avoiding too late an hour.

Mr. Holt.

2792. I might put it in this way, the effects of the Bill would be to throw the onus of making the change off people who are dissatisfied with the existing hours on to the shoulders of people who are satisfied with the existing hours?-Yes, quite so.

Mr. Pearce.

2793. Might I say that that would be equal to a common rule in favour of the change?— I do not quite seize that.

Chairman.

2794. Is there anything else you wish to say? -There is one small point that I forgot to mention, as regards saving the expense for light. It is difficult to make an estimate in the Post Office, but on the whole I do not think there would be any substantial saving. In offices which are open all night there would be practically no saving, and the number of offices where the work is heavy early in the morning is, perhaps. nearly as great as those where there is work in the evening; therefore the increase of artificial light in the morning would to a great extent, compensate for the saving of artificial light in the evening. I should therefore anticipate that the saving, at any rate, would not be an important

matter.

Mr. Pearce.

[Continued.

2795. That is not a professional opinion; that is your personal opinion on a matter outside your usual avocation?-No, I am talking as regards the Post Office solely.

2796. I agree that the artificial light would not be affected there ?-That is taking into account the hours of the Post Office.

2797. You said that you work continuously for 24 hours?—Yes; the work of course is not uniform in each hour of the 24 hours, therefore it does not follow that there would be no saving; but I do not anticipate saving any considerable

amount.

Mr. Pirie.

2798. There is one small point that I forgot to ask you on the Continental Mail question. Do you know the reason why the shortest route, between Boulogne and Folkestone, two hours shorter than the Dover to Calais route, is not universally used for the Paris and London Mail Service?-With the present times of running of the trains there are various reasons for using the Dover Service.

2799. Although it is two hours longer?-The times coincide, for instance, with the Ostend Service, therefore the same train that takes the mails down for the Calais Service takes them down for the Ostend Service; whereas if we used the Boulogne Service it would want a different train. If the Railway Company would run the Boulogne train with quicker running at the same hour as they run the Calais train now, there is no reason why we should not use it.

2800. It is not on the Nord line, but if the South Eastern Company would run a special train to Folkestone the difficulty would be met. Calais has nothing to do with the Ostend Mails?—It has this to do with them: that both services start from Dover and start approximately at the same time, therefore the service from London to Dover

serves both.

2801. We are agreed that the difficulty lies on this side of the Channel. If the South Eastern Company would run a special train to Folkestone, then the Boulogne and Folkestone Service would be the most desirable one for the Paris Mails? There is a great deal more expense, of course, in running two trains than in running one.

2802. But if there was sufficient reason for it, twice in the 24 hours, one day service and one night service?-We do use the Folkestone Service, of course, for the afternoon Mail from Paris.

2803. But if the difficulty had to be got over of the two hours' longer service by Dover and Calais, there would be no insuperable difficulty in shortening it by two hours if you used the Boulogne and Folkestone Service ?--I should not like to give a definite opinion on that point without examining into it more closely.

18 June, 1908.]

Chairman-continued.

few drawbacks that you mentioned might be easily got over?-Yes.

2805. And as regards the Foreign Service, your opinion is that the dislocation which would be caused by the adoption of the principle of the Bill would be so overwhelmingly great that no adjustment of postal times abroad would meet the case unless foreign nations adopted the same principle as is foreshadowed in the Bill?-Yes.

2806. I should like to ask whether you think there is any likelihood of foreign nations, at least those nations that are nearer to these islands, toeing the line with us in this respect?-I am afraid that is a point on which I cannot form an opinion of any value. It seems to me that this consideration comes in: that the further South you go the less advantage there is in any change of the clock.

2807. I am more particularly alluding to places like Germany and the Northern latitudes ?-Yes; also the further North you get the less it matters, because you have light all the time. But that is not a point on which my opinion would be of any value.

2808. You cannot tell the Committee whether France, for instance, would be at all likely to get on to Mid-European time in order to obtain some sort of coincidence with regard to working between these countries ?--No.

2809. You told Mr. Pirie that from the general point of view what the Bill seeks to do would be better done, or at all events it would be more expedient to attempt to do it, not by legislation, but by bringing about a consensus of opinion and of action ?—Yes, I should say that on that point I am giving my own personal opinion.

2810. We understand that perfectly; but your personal opinion is that the advantages that would accrue from the Bill, or from what the Bill seeks to bring about, would be so overwhelmingly great that it might be advisable to try it, but not by legislative modes ?--I should be entirely in favour of trying to bring about a change in the direction desired (ie., earlier office hours in summer) by voluntary methods.

2811. Would you be inclined to say officially that, seeing the relatively small proportion of foreign correspondence, even this Bill might be advantageously promoted in Parliament ?-No, I should not say that. I think the importance of the foreign correspondence is considerably greater than is given by the relative bulk.

2812. Though mathematically the proportion of foreign correspondence is small, its importance is greater than that proportion would indicate ?-For business purposes I should think certainly that was so. May I add to your summary one other

Chairman-continued.

141

[Continued.

point: that if the change is made I am decidedly of opinion that from the Post Office point of view it would be better that it should be a change of one hour made in as few steps as possible.

Mr. Pirie.

2813. But you still admit, with reference to the summary that the Chairman has given as regards the overwhelming difficulty, I think you said, in the case of Continental Mails, that you have not yet looked into the point of shortening the Paris to London Mail Service by the universal adoption of practically the shortest mileage route, namely, Boulogne and Folkestone ?--I said that it did not seem to me to meet the difficulty; that if the Mail Service could be shortened it should be shortened all the year round, and the difficulty of curtailment of the time in summer would still remain, although the particular places that would chiefly suffer from it would be different according to the precise amount of acceleration obtained of the Mail Service.

2814. I am afraid I cannot follow you there. The number of places affected by it would become more and more remote, and therefore perhaps less important ?-Not necessarily less important.

2815. Less populated? The greatest amount of Continental correspondence goes on with our large provincial centres, such as Manchester, Liverpool, and Birmingham?-I do not know that Newcastle or Glasgow would care to be overlooked.

2816. Surely it is merely a question of losing the possibility of replying to a letter without the loss of a business day?—Yes.

2817. If you can reduce this service between the two great centres, Paris and London, from what it is at the present moment an average service of 8 hours and 40 minutes to an average service of 6 hours and 40 minutes, the difficulty is overcome, is it not?—Yes, it is overcome as regards certain places, but at all places you have a curtailment, and for people dealing with letters, at some places, though not the same places, you have the loss of a business day.

2818. And according to the radius of London there is always a certain radius, according to the rapidity of transit, which you must lose the advantages of ?—Yes

Chairman.

2819. I am sure the Committee appreciate the action of the Postmaster-General in deputing you to give evidence, and are equally appreciative of the very clear, admirable, and useful evidence that you have been good enough to give. (The Witness withdrew.)

18 June, 1908.]

[Continued.

Chairman-continued.

are too short in winter and too long in summer to fit in with the waking hours of the population generally, and that this is a matter which cannot be affected by an Act of Parliament. The question, therefore, of the apportionment of the hours of labour to the hours of daylight so as to make the best use of them, whether in winter or in summer, in my view is a question that should be settled by the various classes of the community concerned without any juggling with the uniform measurement of time which is the basis of the whole of our life. It seems to me that really the question of reckoning the time has not been sufficiently considered by those who propose to put 40 minutes in one hour and 80 minutes in another hour. I would particularly emphasise the various classes of the community that I go on further to speak of, who would be best suited by having different hours adapted to their particular work. I take it that it is quite within the competence of Parliament to regulate by legislation the hours of labour in the interests of any particular trade which may desire to make a better use of daylight. I take it that this Bill is chiefly in the interests of clerks in banks and commercial offices, shop-keepers, and publicans possibly-I mention those particularly; but not in the interests of those working men who start work at six o'clock in the morning. My view is that this object may be secured without any resort to this device of altering and upsetting the uniform reckoning of time by shortening four arbitrarily chosen hours in April and lengthening four others in September. Such a tampering with the fundamental principle of time reckoning, which regulates not merely our own life, but also our relations with the rest of the world, would have farreaching consequences, which do not appear to have been sufficiently considered by those who have accepted this scheme as the only way of securing what they desire in the abstract. My view is that this ideal of early rising may be secured in other ways. Taking our own social life first, all the trades now starting work at 6 a.m. would have to start at 4.40 a.m. Greenwich mean time in the summer months. According to this Bill According to this Bill 6 a.m. would be two minutes before sunrise at Greenwich, on the 27th April, which is the fourth Monday in April this year; 41 minutes before sunrise on September 5th, which is the first Saturday in September; 31 minutes before sunrise on September 12th; 23 minutes before sunrise on September 19th; and 13 minutes before sunrise on September 26th. Throughout the summer months work would start shortly after or a little before sunrise in August-it would be a little before sunrise in the greater part of August-and artificial light would be required in factories generally, to supplement the dim light of early morn. Would the great mass of workmen engaged in these trades, if the case were put to them clearly, prefer to get up and go to their work in the hour immediately preceding sunrise? This is admittedly the most exhausting hour of the whole 24, the chill of night being at its maximum before the rising of the sun brings life into the day. I may explain that the minimum temperature is in the summer months at about 4 o'clock a.m.-we can only go to the nearest hour, which is about the time

Chairman-continued.

of sunrise or a little after if anything; and in the winter it is before sunrise; in mid-winter the latest time is about half-past six to seven in the winter months. Throughout the summer months a workman starting work at 4.40 a.m. Greenwich mean time would have to go to bed in broad daylight-7.40 p.m. Greenwich mean time-if he is to get eight hours' sleep with an extra hour for getting up and going to his work. Sir George Livesey has expressed the views of his workmen on the question of starting work earlier in summer, and it would be advisable to have the views of workmen in other trades before attempting to force on them by a transparent device an alteration of their hours which would involve their going to bed in broad daylight all through the summer months and getting up before sunrise all through the year instead of in the winter months only.

2824. When did you say that the sun rose on the 1st of August ?—I did not mention the 1st of August.

2825. What date in August did you mention ?-In the latter part of the month of August. On the 10th of August the sun rises at 4.40.

Mr. Pearce.

2826. Greenwich time ?--Yes, at present, which would be 6 o'clock by the varied time reckoning ; and from that time onwards the work which now starts at 6 would start before sunrise. I should point out here that so far as I am aware-I can speak to that, I think-for something like an hour after sunrise artificial light would be required in factories. The light in the early morning, as in the evening, is very much dimmer for the first hour of the day than it is afterwards. I think that is a consideration which should be borne in mind as affecting the question of the saving of gas.

Chairman.

2827. That would materially affect factories ? In my view, it would.

2828. It would not affect banks or railway stations? I am speaking of trades which commence work at six in the morning. That is a very large section of the population. As regards banks, I should deal with them otherwise, and I shall speak of them afterwards. I would pass on to the other question of the other class, the shopkeepers and clerks in offices, the commercial classes. I would point out first of all that the success of the movement for the voluntary closing of shops on one afternoon in the week shows that shopkeepers can combine when they wish to modify their hours of work, and the workmen in other trades which are better organised would doubtless do so, if they desired a change of hours. As they do not appear to have taken action with a view to starting work earlier in summer, it may be presumed that their present hours, on the whole, suit them best. As regards those engaged in offices, the hours of daylight before work commences may be, and frequently are, utilised by early risers for recreation, and it is a question whether those concerned would prefer to play before their work, in the morning air, when they are fresh, or to play after their day's work in the shades of evening. I can speak from my know

ledge

ledge in that case, of a number of men who before going to business in the morning play golf, or have a swim, or adopt various forms of recreation, which they cannot get after their work. They do it before their work, instead of after. In our own case, at the Royal Observatory, the office hours for the scientific staff, now numbering 47, were formerly from 8.30 to 3 in summer, and from 9 to 3 in winter, continuously, without any break for lunch. They were different in summer and winter-they started half an hour earlier in

summer.

2829. And what are they now?-A change was made at the beginning of 1892, when, after consultation with the assistants, the hours were modified, and are now from 9 to 4.30 with an hour allowed for lunch. Thus office work is started an hour or more earlier than in London Government Offices.

Mr. Pearce.

2830. That is all the year round ?—Yes, that is all the year round; and there is ample daylight

for recreation after 4.30 in the summer months.

My staff have a lawn tennis club, and they play regularly.

2831. That is 47 persons ?-Yes. It is only in It is only in the winter months that there is any difficulty in this respect, and this would not be met by the Daylight Saving scheme. I have, how ever, met it to some extent by a little relaxation, which allows of their playing hockey two days a week, and we have a very prosperous hockey club in consequence. I may mention another case that I deal with. While the usual hours of work in the engineering trade in this neighbourhood (that is Greenwich) are from 6 a.m. to 5.30 p.m., the workmen in one factory which I know prefer to start at 6.30 a.m. and work to 6 p.m. The tendency, therefore, seems to be rather in favour of starting later, although it is accompanied by the objection that they have to go on later.

2832. Is that all the year round?-Yes, that is all the year round. This is a firm that does a great deal of work for the Observatory. Another point is that the two former Royal Astronomers for Ireland (Sir Robert Ball and Mr. Rambaut), who have given evidence, have not succeeded in persuading their countrymen of the advantages of early rising, which might have been secured by substituting Greenwich for Dublin time, the Irish clocks being thus put 25 minutes forward once for all, a less drastic remedy for late rising in Ireland than that proposed in the Daylight Saving Bill. That is a change that would be very much to be desired for the sake of uniformity of time reckoning; but the Irish people do not seem to take to it, as it would involve earlier rising. That is my evidence as regards our own social life.

Chairman.

2833. As regards our relation with the rest of the world, what do you wish to say?-Greenwich mean time has been adopted as the basis for time-reckoning throughout the world with one or two exceptions. I have an enclosure showing the standard time adopted in all countries

Chairman-continued.

of the world; the two exceptions are France and Russia. The French were quite prepared to accept it 35 years ago, but our Government did. not meet them properly, and it fell through. This "Hourly Zone System" was first introduced in the United States and Canada in November, 1883, five standard times, exactly 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 hours respectively later than Greenwich mean time, being substituted for the 75 different local times then in use on the American railways.

2834. Five stardard times ?—Yes, five standard times. The Continent was divided into sections.

2835. Does not that argue that all establishments and measurements of time are arbitrary arrangements?-Yes, certainly.

2836. And that the object is to conform to the convenience of the public. These arbitrary establishments of time are arranged in order to be consistent with the convenience of the public ?For inter-communication, not for the public at the places-not for the inhabitants of any partime. But that change was made once for all ticular places, because they have to change their

and a good deal of difficulty. There were legal difficulties, about which I was consulted at the time, as to the question of the hours which would be defined as hours of burglary, for instance— during the night hours; what would be the the night hours. There might be three-quarters standard time that was adopted. of an hour difference from the local time in the

and it caused a certain amount of confusion,

2837. You consider that there is nothing arbitrary in the measurement of time which is based on the meridian ?-It is based on Greenwich time.

2838. Which you do not consider an arbitrary time? No, Greenwich time is not arbitrary; but formerly in England the local time was the time in use, which is the time defined of course by the passage of the sun across the meridian of the particular place, and that would differ some 20 minutes from Greenwich time in the West of England. It was only through the extension of railways all over the country that they, as a matter of necessity almost, as a matter of convenience, adopted Greenwich time, and so of years the Church clock used to have two hands, carried it through the country; and for a number other local time. It was only in 1880 that the one showing Greenwich or railway time, and the Act was passed constituting Greenwich time as the legal time for the country, unless otherwise expressed; but it is still quite optional; it is open to anyone to use local time if he defines it as such in any legal instrument or deed, just as it is in the present Bill.

2839. That comes to saying that Greenwich time in Devonshire is an arbitrary measurement of time only?—No, I do not think it is an arbitrary measurement.

2840. It is an artificial measurement ?—It is an arbitrary commencement; it is an artificial epoch of time; it starts from an arbitrary epoch; but that is a different matter from the measurement of time. The hours are all of the same length.

2841. But it is a measurement based upon the passage of the sun across the meridian ?—No, it is not.

2842. I