16 June, 1908.]

Chairman-continued.

drifting into crime, but many of them are below the average in physical and mental capacity, and that is the ground upon which, I think, it would be well to pass the Bill which is before the House, so that they may have as much sunlight and daylight as possible, in order to bring back the health and strength to them which they have lost during the period they have spent in the slums of our large cities.

2619. I suppose your Society never asks for, or receives, any pecuniary payment for taking care of the children ?-The majority of the cases are taken absolutely free, without payment; but where there are relatives who ought to relatives who ought to recognise their responsibility, we ask for a nominal payment in order that they may recognise their responsibility to the children.

2620. Your view is that the Bill will do good? -I think so, distinctly.

2621. Have you any Board with whom you act, or is this your personal view?-We have an Executive Committee.

2622. Have they considered the matter in their corporate capacity?—They have.

2623. And they generally approve ?-They approve of my view of the matter. I put it before them and they quite approved.

2624. What do you suggest in regard to the provisions of the Bill-how far do you agree with the method?--I think it would be simpler to have three changes of half-an-hour each than four changes of 20 minutes each. The half-an-hour would be more easily remembered than 20 minutes, and the six changes in the year would be preferable to eight.

2625. Can you say anything for the guidance of the Committee as regards the relative advantages of a permanent alteration or a half-yearly alteration of time?--Well, I do not think a permanent alteration would meet the case at all. The object of the Bill is to ensure the use of more daylight and sunlight when they are available, and the permanent alteration I do not think would bring that about.

2626. From what point of view; do you mean in the winter months ?-In the winter months more artificial light is required in the morning. Supposing a permanent alteration were made to put the clock forward for an hour, as has been suggested, we should use more artificial light in the morning, which would be bad for the children's eyes. The arrangement in our homes at present is that the children rise at six in the summer and seven in the winter months. There would be no harm, and much benefit would, I think, accrue if they were to rise at five by the sun instead of six in the summer, or even earlier.

2627. What would there be to prevent your having a different time table, at any rate for the winter months, in accordance with the altered provisions of the then standard time? You say your hours are six in the summer and seven in the winter?-Quite so.

seven and

Chairman-continued.

129

[Continued.

ing with the clocks and watches and have alterations in different time-tables?-I think the children-especially some of the delicate children-. require more rest in bed during the winter months than in the summer months. They can rest, if necessary, during the summer months, in their gardens and playgrounds, which would be impossible in the winter; and it would be much better for them to rest in bed in the winter months than to be sitting over fires.

2630. Precisely ?—Therefore I should not advocate any alteration in the arrangement of the present time-that is to say, under the Bill they would rise an hour and 20 minutes earlier in the summer and go to bed an hour and 20 minutes earlier during the summer months. In the winter they would do as they do at present, viz., rise an hour later.

2631. Precisely. Your arguments would go to show that it is better to alter the clocks twice a year rather than that you should alter your time

table?—Yes.

2632. Your domestic economy ?-That is so.

2633. Does not it appear to you as being somewhat out of proportion that the whole standard economy of time should be altered twice a year in order to save you the trouble of altering your own time-table ? There seems to be a certain disproportion between the one thing and the other; in other words, would not it be better for you to alter your time-table during the winter months and avoid the half-yearly adjustment which would be necessitated under this Bill?—I do not think so, Sir; I think, as I have already explained, that the winter time-table does differ now from the summer time-table-that is to say, the children's hours. are later in the winter months; that arrangement, of course, would still hold good, and the rule at other times is that the children do not rise so early by the clock in winter as they do in the summer. 2634. But that you can adjust as you like, apart from this Bill ?-We do.

2635. You could make the children rise three hours later by the sun if you chose to do so ?—We could.

2636. There is nothing in this Bill to prevent you doing that?-Nothing at all.

2637. Therefore I suggest to you that, if there is any question of the relative advantages of a permanent or piece-meal alteration, it might be met by the making of a permanent alteration rather than a piece-meal one ?-The time-tables depend to some extent on the school hours.

2638. The public schools?--Yes. The children go out to the elementary schools, and therefore any change, I think, should be universal.

Mr. Holt.

2639. Your children all go out to the elementary schools? Yes.

2640. What age are these 4,000 boys and girls?—They range from one year up to 17 and 18. 2641. Through the whole length of childhood, really? Yes.

2629. So that would it not be better to have a permanent alteration and avoid constant tamperM

depends entirely upon the age of the children. The younger children, of course, would go to bed soon after six or seven o'clock in the evening;

19

the

the others would remain up perhaps for an hour later the older ones.

2643. What would be a fair age to take-14 or 15? Fourteen would be a fair age for the older children ?-Say 14 years.

2644. You begin to get rid of them then ?-At 14 to 16.

2645. When does a boy of 14 go to bed at your Institution ?-A boy of 14 would go to bed at half-past seven or eight.

2646. 7.30 to eight ?—Yes.

2647. In winter and summer alike ?-Generally in winter and summer alike, yes.

2648. If a boy of 14 is going to bed at eight o'clock and is going to get up at six o'clock in the morning this Bill would not affect him in the summer-it is perfectly broad day-light at eight o'clock ?-The day-light is of two kinds-there is the "waning" daylight and the rising daylight; and on the whole the "rising" daylight or the "rising" sun-light is far preferable and much more healthy for young children than the waning" day-light or the "setting" sun-light. I think it is a well known fact (and medical experts would tell you so) that it is far better to get the early day-light than the waning day-light; therefore, I think it is better for the boys to rise an hour earlier in the morning, even if they have to spend the hours of "waning" day-light in

66

bed.

2649. The boy does not really get more daylight, but better day-light then?-Better daylight.

Mr. Holt-continued.

[Continued.

2650. I expect you have found (from the cases you have probably had to deal with) that all these children, especially the delicate ones, want a great deal of time in bed ?-Yes

2651. And ought to have ?—Yes.

2652. I take it you would say, generally speaking, that it is not very desirable that the hours that children are out of bed should be increased? No, they should not, I think.

2653. Taking the year all round, and looking at the world at large, you would say that most of the modern children are out of bed quite as much as is good for them ?-Quite, and more so, some of them.

2654. If this Bill had the effect of increasing the hours that children are kept out of bed, it would be rather unfortunate for the children ?Yes. There is one remark I may perhaps be permitted to make: I think in the interests of morality it would be better to give people more day-light if more day-light is available—I mean in our over-crowded populations. It is readily seen that most mischief is worked after dark at night in the country lanes, and also in the London slums.

2655. I think there is no doubt about that? And, therefore, I think that it is far better to give as much day-light as we can, and to tire out the children, if possible, before the darkness sets in. (The Witness withdrew.)

Chairman. 2656. You are Secretary to the Post Office?— Yes.

2657. This Committee attaches the greatest possible importance to your evidence, because they consider that the practicability of the Bill is largely contingent upon the extent to which it may possibly interfere or not with the convenience of the Post Office, and consequently the convenience of the public. Would you kindly develop your views upon the general principle and scope of the

Chairman-continued.

Bill, first, as regards the home service?-The point to which I have rather specially directed the evidence I have prepared is the effect of the proposals of the Bill, if they were adopted, on the Services of the Post Office. I take it that is the point to which the Committee would probably attach most importance.

2658. Certainly?-I propose, if you approve, to deal, first, with the postal services. 2659. If you please. I might as well mention

at

18 June, 1908.]

Chairman-continued.

at this point that those representatives of railway interests who have come before us have been practically unanimous in their view that whatever alterations may be required by the Bill would not cause any dislocation to their services ?—I have read the evidence of most of the railway managers, but I did not gather the impression that that was the case as regards the Continental

services.

2660. The inconvenience, they considered, would be such as not to gravely interfere with their services. That was the impression left upon my mind personally, but my colleagues, in crossexamination, will be able probably to throw more light upon it. Will you please proceed?-As regards the home mail service, the change of the clock would not produce any serious dislocation at all. The collections, deliveries, despatches and arrivals of mails would take place by clock time as they do now, assuming, of course, that the railway time-tables remained substantially unaltered. There would be a certain amount of inconvenience at the times of change, especially at the change in the spring, when the clock is put forward. In the case of mails which are in course of being dealt with at two o'clock on Sunday morning there would be 20 minutes less time for dealing with them; and as, of course, the staff is arranged so as closely to fit the work to be done, that would mean a certain amount of dislocation, and probably some additional staff at that particular time, and therefore a certain amount of expense. At the same time the amount of work that is going on at two o'clock on Sunday morning is not very great, so that the expense would not be a very serious matter. There would also be the mails on each Sunday morning on which the change was made which would arrive late by the amount of the change, and to that extent there would be dislocation of the deliveries. At the same time, so far as London is concerned, if the change is made on Sunday morning that is unimportant, because there is no delivery in London on Sundays; and in provincial towns and country places, although, generally speaking, there is a delivery on Sunday, a delay of 20 minutes in that delivery would not be a matter of serious importance, because not being a business day it is not a matter of urgency to receive letters at a particular time. I would therefore say, generally, as regards the internal service, that there would be some inconvenience at the time of the change; but that if the railway time-tables remained substantially unaltered, the service after the change was made would go on without inconvenience at the same clock time as at present.

2661. Then with regard to foreign mails, what is your opinion?-With regard to foreign mails the case is different, and there a difficulty would arise which, I think, is a very serious one. Unless the clock time of Continental countries were altered also, it would probably be impracticable to alter the time of the running of the Continental mails. The time of running of those mails is not fixed arbitrarily, but depends upon the business day of the principal towns. For instance, for the night mails from France the time of posting is naturally fixed by the end of the business day

M

Chairman-continued.

131

[Continued.

in Paris, and unless the clock time in Paris were altered also, it probably would be impracticable to alter the posting time of the night mails. And, of course, there are elaborate connections all over the Continent which work in with the night despatches. Therefore I anticipate that unless the Continental countries also alter their clock time, it would be found impracticable to alter the time of running of the principal Continental mails; that is to say, the arrival of the Continental mails would be one hour and twenty minutes later by clock time during the summer months. The result of that would be that the night mails, which are the most important mails, at any rate from France, would no longer fall into the first delivery in London, but would fall into the second or possibly even the third delivery, and that the provincial connections would also be thrown out of gear. There is, of course, an elaborate system of connection for the conveyance of the Continental mails to the provinces, and unless the time of those trains were altered, the connections would be thrown out of gear. The mails would have to be sent by later trains, and the time of delivery in the provinces would probably be later, not by one hour and twenty minutes, but by something more than an hour and twenty minutes, probably in many cases by two or three hours; because there would not be trains exactly connecting with the altered time of arrival of the Continental mails. That would mean, both in London and the provinces, a shorter time for dealing with Continental letters for answer the same day, unless, of course, the time of despatch and the time of posting in the evening were altered. As regards the outgoing mails in the evening, the result of the alteration of clock time, if the time of posting remained unaltered would be that there would be a longer time for dealing with the mails before despatch, and there would be no disadvantage in that from the point of view of the Post Office; on the contrary, there would be some advantage, because time is run very fine at present, and it would be a considerable relief to have a longer time for dealing with the mails. But I should anticipate that there would be very soon a demand on the part of the public to shorten the time of posting for Continental mails, so as to swallow up that interval; and if that demand was conceded, it would mean large alterations of the railway connections with the provinces, in order to give a later time for posting the Continental mails in the provinces. It would also mean I think, probably, that having given a later time of posting in summer there would be considerable difficulty in persuading the public to go back to the earlier time of posting again in winter. I should anticipate that it would in the end give rise to a demand for a later time of posting all the year round. There would also, as regards the day mails from the Continent, be some dislocation. At present the day mails from the Continent arrive in time to be delivered, as a rule, the same evening, too late, of course, for the business day, but in time for social purposes.

2662. You mean what is known as the Club train in Paris ?-I mean the train that arrives at 4.50 at Cannon Street; letters which arrive by that train from France, that is to say, letters

19*

posted

18 June, 1908.]

Chairman-continued.

posted either late at night or very early in the morning in Paris, are delivered the same evening in London. If that train were due to arrive one hour and twenty minutes later, if it were punctual the letters might still be delivered by the last delivery in the evening. If it were unpunctual, which is not infrequently the case, they would not be delivered by the last delivery in the evening. There would be some cases also in which Continental letters coming by the day mail would not catch the night mails to the provinces; therefore there would be substantial delay in the delivery of letters in the provinces. In fact, generally speaking, the result of the later arrival by clock time of the Continental mails would mean a very serious dislocation of the whole of the services which connect with the foreign mails, and would mean, in most cases, a material curtailment of the business day for dealing with Continental correspondence. I may give one instance, perhaps, as to how it would work. To take the case of Liverpool, for instance, the Continental letters arriving by night mail arrive at Liverpool at 12.10, 10 minutes past noon, and are delivered at about 1.30 p.m. They have to be sorted, of course, on arrival, and they are delivered at about 1.30. There is from Liverpool a special late-fee dispatch, at five minutes past four, which just gives time to deal with urgent letters and to answer them the same day. That dispatch at five minutes past four connects with the London and Dover sorting carriage, and letters posted at that time with the late fee are delivered in Paris or at Havre, or any northern French town, early next morning. If the arrival of the night mail were an hour and twenty minutes later, they would then fall into a later train from London, and would not be delivered in Liverpool till four o'clock, that is to say, too late for a reply to be dispatched by that late-fee dispatch at 4.5, which means that a day would be lost in replying to that correspondence. There would be, of course, a corresponding loss of a day in a number of provincial towns-in all the Midland towns, in fact. As you get further off, the matter is less important, because at Glasgow, for instance, there would not be time to answer Continental letters the same day.

2663. So that with regard to the foreign postal service your opinion is that by no arrangement that could be made here, either in the way of increasing the shift of Post Office work, or by having some sort of an arrangement with the foreign Post Offices to post their letters earlier, this difficulty could be got over ?-The increase of force would not be any remedy. Practically as large a force is put on now as can deal with the matter. It is dealt with as rapidly as it can be dealt with, and there is no margin of time which could be economised in order to compensate for the later arrival. As regards Continental dispatches, of course if the Continental dispatches and the times of all the trains all over the Continent and of the mail boats across Channel were altered twice a year, or eight times a year, that would meet the case; but I anticipate that that would have such serious results as regards business hours on the Continent that it would not be practicable to arrive at it.

Chairman-continued.

[Continued.

2664. We shall later on consider the question of the method of altering the time which might conceivably make some difference in your replies; but what I am anxious to get from you now is whether by means of an arrangement with foreign post-offices to secure earlier posting of letters, this difficulty might not be to a large extent obviated. Let me put it this way. Supposing that you came to an arrangement with foreign post-offices to post letters an hour earlier, do you consider that a large portion of your objections would be removed? If an arrangement were made with foreign post-offices to post an hour or an hour and twenty minutes earlier, and with the foreign railways to run their trains an hour or an hour and twenty minutes earlier, and with the packet companies to run their boats an hour or an hour and twenty minutes earlier, then, clearly, the effect of the change of the clock would be counteracted as regards foreign mails; but as the time of the posting of letters and the time of running trains is not fixed arbitrarily, but fixed with regard to the business day, I anticipate that it would not be possible to arrive at such an arrangement unless the business day were altered.

2665. But as regards that, there are so many different collections of letters abroad, that it does not seem altogether impracticable, does it, to get earlier hours of posting, and consequently similar arrangements being made both by packet companies and by railway companies ?-I can only infer what the possibilities would be in foreign countries by seeing what they are in this country; and I should regard it as absolutely impracticable to change the hour of posting for the principal provincial and Continental mails from 6 o'clock to 5. I think the City of London would rebel if we suggested such a thing.

2666. For instance, there is a post in Paris for England which leaves by the 8.30 a.m. train from Paris. I think that is the first day train from Paris. Perhaps you could tell us which is the first train service carrying letters from France to England?-The three principal mails from the Continent by the Calais route are those arriving in London at 5.30 in the morning, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, and at 7 o'clock in the evening. There is also the mail to which I think you allude, which arrives at Charing Cross at 3.35 in the afternoon.

2667. That is the Boulogne and Folkestone train? Yes.

2668. Does that carry letters ?-It carries letters.

2669. That gets in at 3.35 you say?—At 3.35.

Mr. Holt.

2670. Could you give the hours of posting in Paris for each of the four deliveries whose arrival you have named ?-The time of departure of the train from Paris which arrives at 5.30 in the morning is 9 o'clock in the evening, and the posting in Paris for that I should suppose would be up to 6 o'clock, but I have not the exact hour.

Chairman.

2671. There may be special posting ?-There may

18 June, 1908.]

Chairman-continued.

may possibly be a late-fee posting; I am not sure to what extent they have that.

2672. That is the last hour of posting ?—The time of posting, I understand, is later than six, probably something after seven; but I am afraid I have not the exact time. Then the train which arrives at 5.4 p.m. leaves Paris at 9.50 a.m. That practically means for business purposes posting the night before.

Mr. Holt.

2673. That is really no good for business purposes?-No; for social purposes no doubt it is. The train which arrives at 7.5 p.m. leaves Paris at noon. There might, therefore, be time by that to answer urgent letters arriving in Paris by the morning mail; but that arrival at 7.5 of course is no good for the business day here, and letters would probably fall into the next morning's delivery; so that there would be no advantage for business purposes in posting by that rather than the evening mail delivered early next morning.

2674. Supposing that a man in Paris wanted to do business with Liverpool or Manchester, he would get an advantage, because he would get delivery in Manchester or Liverpool the first thing in the morning ?-Yes, he would get an advantage there.

2675. Which he would probably lose if that train was an hour or two later ?—Yes.

Chairman.

2676. Does that finish your evidence with regard to foreign mails?—Yes, I think that is all as regards foreign mails.

If

2677. With regard to telegraph and telephone services inland, what do you wish to tell us? There there would not be any service inconvenience, I think. At the moment of the change some adjustment of staff would be necessary, but the business of course is very light at 2 o'clock on Sunday morning, and I do not anticipate that there would be any serious inconvenience. the clock time were changed as proposed and the same clock hours were kept for business purposes, the flow of telegraph traffic would probably be much the same as it is now by the clock. There would, however, be some change if the hours of daylight in the afternoon were used for prolonging cricket matches and other sports; that would mean that the telegraph business in the afternoon would be prolonged, and the staff of course would have to be on duty to deal with it.

2678. And as regards the International service, what do you say?-As regards the International service, at present, as the Committee are aware, our time coincides with that of Belgium and Holland, and differs by an hour from that of countries which use Mid-European time. The people who are in the habit of communicating by telegraph with the Continent are also in the habit of making allowance for the difference of clock time, and I should anticipate that they would soon accustom themselves to the changed time in summer, and that no serious inconvenience would be caused to them by the change of time.

Chairman-continued.

133

[Continued.

As regards the service, there might be a certain inconvenience in this way: at present the business day in Germany and other Mid-European countries being earlier than the business day here, the flow of telegrams inwards and outwards does not precisely coincide. The flow of telegrams inwards from the Continent is earlier than the flow of telegrams outwards to the Continent. That means, of course, more economical use both of the wires and of the staff than if the peak of the two curves coincided. If the clock time was altered so as to coincide with MidEuropean time or to approximate to it, that probably would mean that the highest period of flow would more nearly coincide, and therefore some adjustment of staff would be necessary, and probably some increased expense. There would be, however, some compensation in the divergence that it would create between British and French time, which would act in the opposite direction, and would tend to create a difference in the flow where there is pretty nearly coincidence at pre

sent.

In

2679. Leading to less pressure of work?Yes. On the whole I think the result would be to cause some inconvenience and expense, but not enough to be a serious consideration. the case of telegraphing to more distant countries, inconvenience would undoubtedly be caused where the overlapping of the business days is slight, as in the case of America, which the Committee, I think, have had before them already. There is a large amount of telegraphing business during the period when the two business two days no longer days overlap. If the overlapped, that telegraph business would no doubt be interfered with, and I should conjecture that there would probably be a diminution of telegraphic traffic, because certain kinds of business now transacted would become impracticable. That, however, is a point that rather concerns the business point of view than the of view. I should purely telegraphic point perhaps add, as regards the question of the time which appears on telegrams from distant countries, that persons who telegraph to distant countries are already in the habit of making the necessary allowance for difference of time; and would cause very serious inconvenience to them I do not anticipate that changing clock time when they became accustomed to it.

2680. Does that conclude your evidence with regard to International telegraphic and telephone

service? Yes.

2681. Now what effect would the proposals of the Bill have upon the staff of the Post Office ? -As regards the clerical staff, the effect would be much the same as it is in the case of businesses the clerical staff of the Post Office already comes in general, except that a substantial part of on duty at 9 or 9.30 in the morning and not at 10-some of it even earlier; some come on duty as early as 8 and 8.30, but the majority come on duty at 9, 9.30 or 10 o'clock.

Mr. Pirie.

2682. You said it would have the same effect as on business employees generally. Do you

mean