16 June, 1908.] Mr. DUKINFIeld. [Continued. Chairman-continued. in the bargain. To put it in a few words it is this way: Suppose a spinner says to me, "I will buy from you 500 bales of Good Middling' cotton at 50 points October, to be delivered to me any time I like in October." Very well, any time in the month of October-any day-he can come to me and say:"Now I will take that 500 bales at 50 points on October contracts to-day." By the first part of his bargain he secures the quantity and the quality -by the last part of his bargain he fixes the price of the "call" on the bargain. Now this is the point I want to impress upon you :-As often as not this man-especially on the Manchester market-would wait until the last hour of our market, when they have got the New York cable, and see the trend of the market-they will wait till half-past 3 or a quarter to 4 before they will decide about "calling"-then suddenly telephone down: "I will call' for the 500 bales at such a price "; so that the afternoon market is very useful to him in that respect. 2481. What difference is there in the inception of the transaction-the beginning of the translation and its final completion ?-Do you mean what difference in time? 66 call " 2482. In time?-That is purely a matter of arrangement. A very common thing is to buy cotton on "call during this or next month," and a spinner who has made contracts and bought this season will buy it from you on during October or November, as the case may be. The ordinary transaction ofter. runs during the present month or the next month." That is quite a new style of business of the last two or three years, and one which is growing very largely indeed; in fact, we have had to enact new regulations and rules to fit it. 66 2483. Then it comes to this, that it would interfere with one portion-I admit an extremely important portion-the central portion of the Liverpool trade-by your having to work an hour earlier, whether at the start or the finish? Yes. 2484. That is what your objection amounts to? -An hour longer. 2485. An hour longer ?-Yes, I do not think under the modern conditions of business that they can stand the strain. You know it is only during the last 8 or 10 years that this "ring" of trade has obtained. In the old days you may possibly remember we used to trade walking about on the "Flags amongst others, but now it is much more concentrated, much more intense. 2486. Consequently involves a much greater strain on the attention ?—Yes. 2487. You do not think it would be possible for the Liverpool Cotton Association to meet an hour later and close at the same time as they do now? -Do you mean close and re-open again, Sir? 2488. No. To open an hour later. I suppose you open now at 10 o'clock, do not you?-Yes. You mean open at 11 and close at 5? 2489. Open at 11 and close at 5, so that your hour of closing would be precisely what it is now only you would begin to work an hour later?-Well, as I said just now, that is what we would be forced to do if the Bill passed, but that is what we do not quite want to do, because the early part of the day has its advantages in light. Spinners do not Chairman-continued. like to buy in the afternoon light if they can help it; they prefer the early daylight the forenoon for preference, always. Then again, there is another point; if we close too early a great deal of business will go to New York; that is to say, I have known cases myself where frequently business in connection with Manchester, even as it is late business at 4 o'clock-where men have made "trades" or sold a quantity of stuff and they wanted to have some "cover" or some "hedge," and the order has gone to New York, and it would be still more the case if we knocked off the last hour of the market; and New York, is a very keen competitor with Liverpool as it is. 2491. They come down from Preston, Bolton, Blackburn, and so on ?—Yes. 2492. And are frequently there by ten o'clock in the morning?--Ten o'clock, or very little after. 2493. I think I am right in saying that it is very customary amongst these people, instead of going in the first instance to their own office or going straight to the mill, to come straight to Liverpool and do their Liverpool business first, and then go to their mill or their works?—What they do, Sir, I think, is very often this, they come down to their brokers in Liverpool and just ring up the mill on the telephone and find out what is doing, and so on. 2494. And go back to the mill afterwards?And go back to the mill after lunch. 2495. Therefore, if the Liverpool Cotton Market were to open an hour later there would be not only inconvenience to these people, but it would have a tendency to make the work of their mill to go on an hour later-it would postpone their arrival there?-Well, it would tend to defer the office work of the mill, I should think, not the other. 2496. It would defer the office work. You gave us a time at which the New Orleans Market opened-what was it?-9.5. 2497. 9.5-what is the difference of time?— An hour. Oh, I was thinking of the difference of the time between New York and New Orleansbetween here and there it is six hours all but five minutes. 2498. And they open at five minutes past nine? -They open at five minutes past nine, yes. 2499. So that you are in communication with them from five minutes past three to four o'clock? -Yes, the New Orleans cables come through a little slower; we get them about a quarter or 20 minutes past three. 2500. It takes a little longer to come from New Orleans than from New York ?-Yes, to the New York messages we frequently get answers in eight to ten minutes-sometimes five to six 125 16 June, 1908.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE DAYLIGHT SAVING BILL. Mr. Holt-continued. Mr. DUKINFIELD. 2503. Is not the use of the "big spot market for the hour during the day very important?Very, and I was going to say this-that taking Memphis as an instance--because I trade with Memphis, and I know-Memphis very often waits until they get the opening of New York, which they get very quickly indeed, before they make the actual offer of cotton to Liverpool, which we can accept or not accept before the close of our market. 2504. I do not know whether you are able to answer this from your own knowledge--are you aware that the Liverpool grain trade express themselves also as opposed to this Bill?--Well, I understand that is so; in fact, it is current talk in our own Exchange that the grain market is very much against it. 2505. Their position is very similar to yours?Very similar, with this exception-it almost emphasises it a great deal of the grain business is done at Chicago, and the Chicago market opens very early on account of being so far west; it opens, I think, at nine o'clock. 2506. For the very express purpose of being in communication with the British and Continental markets?-Yes. Mr. Pearce. 2507. Is that so?--Yes. Mr. Holt. 2508. Now the Liverpool Cotton trade is an extremely important trade, is it not, in amount? -Yes. 2509. So is the grain trade?-Well, the cotton trade is much bigger. 2510. The cotton trade is much bigger, but it is perhaps the most important trade in the town? —It is, I think, undoubtedly; next to the shipping trade it is the most important produce trade undoubtedly. 2511. It is very probable that if these trades found themselves under the necessity of keeping open till five o'clock in consequence of this Bill passing into law, the whole of the rest of the businesses in Liverpool would have to adopt their hours? Do you mean the other trades? 2512. Yes. The practical inconvenience of a town like Liverpool running different hours for the commercial businesses would be enormous ?—I suppose it would be so. 2513. Take the shipowners-they would find it very difficult they would practically have to keep their offices open at the same time as the offices of their customers were open ?-Let me see; how would this affect Banks in that connection? They would close at three, two hours earlier, for instance, supposing we adopted the plan of closing an hour later and closed at five; if the Banks closed at three, it would not affect us very much-the Banks. 2514. If you did not open until 11 there would be great pressure on the part of the cotton trade on their bankers to adopt hours that were more nearly coincident with their own ?-Well, I should think it would come to that-that is the only way you could make it fit in. Mr. Richards. [Continued. 2515. Of course, from what we can gather there does seem to be a great difficulty in the matter, but is not there a difference in the times now of business men?-In what way, Sir? 2516. Do not Banks close much earlier than merchants' offices now in this country ?-Oh yes. 2517. Speaking generally ?-Speaking generally, yes. 2518. And you would not be surprised to learn that there are some organisations that take large sums of money after the Banks have closed in some of our towns in the country, therefore we find these people have to provide safes and have to work in conformity with banking hours?—In the cotton trade, Sir, we are doing away as much as possible with actual cash-that is to say, our payments are all in cheque and voucher. That is a great point that we make, because, of course, cotton goes into very large sums; and I remember in my apprentice days having to go round with five, 10 and 12 thousand pounds in my pocket, but now a youngster, if he is sent round from office to office, has a piece of paper-a voucher-on the clearing house, that is all. 2519. If you in Liverpool had to extend your market hours one hour, it would not be necessary for Banks to keep open for your purposes longer, would it ?—I do not think so. I do not think Banks are any particular point in it at all. 2520. Do I understand that there is such a difference in our time here that three o'clock English time is 10 o'clock New York ?-Yes, it is five hours New York and six hours all but five minutes New Orleans. 2521. And as a general custom the Liverpool market can only deal with the New York market one hour per day? That is all. 2522. If this method were adopted it would rob you of that one hour ?-It would absolutely cut out that business. 2523. Unless some other arrangement were made ?-Unless we can arrange our times of opening, we are in the dilemma of either not opening early enough according to the new time, or else we have to close an hour later. 2524. And it is possible that if our custom was to start earlier in the morning, with the idea of finishing off work earlier in the evening on that system, what would benefit us might also benefit our American cousins, might it not? -Well, if they would adopt the same variation of time it would be a very great thing. It would be a good thing if you could get our American friends on the other side to modify the time a little to alter it. Mr. Pearce. 2525. What is the population of Liverpool?820,000. 2526. 800,000, about ?-Yes, fully. 2527. If this Bill was advantageous to the whole of the rest of the Kingdom, that would be in the proportion of under one million to about 44 millions ?-Oh yes. Of course that goes without saying. 2528. You would not outweigh the disadvantages to Liverpool against the advantage to the rest of the community ?-Well, of course I am only pointing 16 June, 1908.] Mr. DUKINFIELD. Mr. Pearce-continued. pointing out the difficulties as regards our own business. 2529. I agree. You are explaining to us the effect to Liverpool ?—Yes. 2530. Would not the effect on the Liverpool Cotton trade, as you put it, be to spread the work now done over seven hours instead of six? -Yes, it would be. Chairman-continued. [Continued. who work far longer hours?-Well, I think it is, Sir, in busy times. I do not know whether you have ever been in the Cotton Exchange, Sir? 2546. No, I have not?-If you are ever at Liverpool, it would be worth your while to look in. 2547. Is the strain greater there than on the Stock Exchange ?-Yes, I think it is; it is more 2531. That would be the effect?-That would intense for the time. be the effect. 2532. Would not that relieve the strain somewhat?-No, it would not, because, as I explained to you just now, when we tried to keep open 6 hours some two years ago, in a very short time we had a huge petition up before the Board of Directors to please go back to the old hour; we could not stand it. د, 66 room 2533. Who was the petition from ?-From the traders in the ring and the men in the generally. 2534. Is there a season in your trade? trade? -Yes. 2535. Which is the busiest time?-Well, the busy season is from September to about spring; it begins about August practically. 2536. That is, you are practically slackest in the summer months ?-Yes, in the summer months if all goes right-if we have no crop damage or anything of that sort. 2537. The changes proposed by the Bill, then, affect your slackest time only ?-Quite so. Chairman. 2538. You said just now that Mr. Cunningham had made a suggestion to the Liverpool Cotton Brokers' Association with a view of endeavouring to bring about some sort of modus vivendi between New York and New Orleans and Liverpool ?—Yes. 2539. In order to see whether the advantages of this Bill might not be secured for the rest of the population, which seems to me a very patriotic move, is it intended to try and feel the pulses of those people, of the two Associations? Well, nothing officially has been done in that respect, Sir, but I believe some correspondence has passed-in fact, I have written myself to some of our correspondents to know how it would affect them. 2540. That would be unofficial ?-Quite so. 2541. It was not decided by the Liverpool Cotton Brokers' Association ?-No, it was not even suggested by them; it was merely a letter that Mr. Cunningham wrote to the papers. 2542. Was he present himself at the meeting? -Yes, he was present. 2543. Did he argue the matter out?-He was one of the advocates of the new measure on the idea simply that New York and New Orleans would open earlier to accommodate us, but then, of course, there is a big "if " in the matter. 2544. You have no reason to assume that they would fall in with it?-No; I am afraid that they would not do it, for the very reason I gave you just now that they all live out of town in the summer, it is so frightfully hot there-it is 90 to 95 degrees in the shade. 2545. Do you think the strain upon the members of the Liverpool Cotton Brokers' Association is greater than that on the gentlemen of the Press, 2548. I should have thought it was the other way about. Mr. Holt: You mean the London Stock Exchange? Chairman: Yes, I mean the London Stock Exchange. Witness: I have no experience of the London Stock Exchange. 2549. There they deal in such a variety of stocks and securities that I should have thought the strain would be greater there. Here you have only one staple article, and the variation must be very great?Yes. 2550. Apart from the inconvenience likely to be caused to the Cotton Trade Association, have you considered the social aspects of the Bill?Yes. 2551. Will you tell us what you think-briefly? -From that point of view, I do not see any objection to it. The only objection I do see to it, quite frankly, Sir, is the altering of your clock four times forward and four times backward. I think if the thing is going to be passed at all a clean hour on the 1st of May and a clean hour back on the 1st of September would be much preferable. 2552. You are quite sure about that. You think May in preference to April; have you any reason for selecting May instead of April?—Well, I only suggested that, Sir, because the hour and 20 minutes which you gradually put the clock forward culminates on the 1st of May. That was really the reason. 2553. The average of it would be about the 15th April-the hour and 20 minutes?-Yes. 2554. Would you prefer the setting back of the clock in the autumn ?--Certainly. 2555. You would?-Certainly. 2556. You would not make a permanent alteration ?-Oh dear me no, and that, as a cotton merchant, I should say most decidedly, because we should be coming down before it was light enough to see what we were doing in Winter. 2557. Now are you quite convinced that the only effect of taking an hour, instead of an hour and twenty minutes-an alteration even for six months, of an hour, if that were adoptedas regards the Liverpool Cotton Association, would be that you would start work an hour earlier ?-Yes. 2558. You would work an hour earlier. My point is that you would start an hour earlier, but you would close at the same time as you do now, by the sun?-Yes. Well, if we started to work an hour earlier and closed at the same time as we do now, we would be working seven hours instead of six, would we not? 2559. Yes, that is right ?-That is where the objection comes in. 2560. Even though the earlier hour is in the morning morning and at the start of the work, instead of at the finish. Let me put it in this way. Now, your hours are 10 to four ?-10 to four, yes? 2561. Then they would be 10 to five ?-Yes. 2562. Therefore, you will have finished your daily work an hour earlier, having started an hour earlier ?—Yes. 2563. Do not you think that makes some little difference as regards the general spreading out of the strain on the mind. With an hour earlier in the morning the work is far less intense, and if you consider the general equilibratory effect of that earlier hour, do not you think that the intensity of the strain might to a certain extent be mitigated?-I see your idea. It would be It would be very prolonged-seven hours. 2564. You said incidentally, in reply to Mr. Holt, that the grain dealers generally are against the Bill?-Yes. 2569. You were good enough to write to me. May I use these figures. May I mention the figures you gave me ?-Certainly. Do you mean the cablegrams? 2570. I will read your note. May I take it from you that the Commercial Cable Company and the Western Union Cable Company gave you a return of the number of messages sent and received on cotton business only ?-That is right, Sir. 2571. "Between the hours of 2.40 and 4 p.m. during the month of May just passed"?--Yes. 2572. "The total figure being 7,411 cablegrams "-Yes. 2573. "This comprises 21 working days"?Yes. 2574. "Because Saturdays and Sundays do not count"?-That is correct. 2575. "As the Cotton Exchange closes at 12.30 p.m. on Saturdays"?-Yes. 2576. "The messages sent to America total 3,160"?—Yes. 2577. And "received from America 4,251 " ? -Yes. 2578. "Or an average sent and received of 351 messages daily in the 80 minutes above referred to"?-Yes that is quite correct. The Cable Companies asked me not to have those figures published in the Press. 2579. They go on the minutes of our evidence ? -Yes, but will those figures go into the daily papers ? 2580. Not necessarily, because the Press will be discreet about that, if you wish it?-They asked me specially, as a matter of fact, not to Mr. Pearce-continued. publish them. I have the individual figures of each Company. They are both very jealous. 2581. I asked you whether I might put them to you, but if you would rather not put them in we will leave them out ?-By all means put them on the minutes. Chairman. We will ask the Press not to make any use of them. Mr. Pearce. 2582. I may take it that any trade, including the Cotton Brokers' Trade, would adapt itself to the demands of their customers in point of time and other things too ?-Well, unless it was too onerous. I am thinking now of the other side of the water; for instance, take the New Orleans friends. I think if you asked them to come down I at 8 o'clock in the morning they would rather grumble. 2583. We cannot expect New York or New Orleans to alter themselves because we do ?— No, of course not. 2586. I think Mr. Cunningham's name was mentioned as being one who was rather more or less in favour of the Bill ?—Yes. 2587. I think in his letter he clearly says that unless some arrangement could be come to with New York and New Orleans to alter their hours, the Cotton Association would oppose the Bill tooth and nail ?-Yes, he did; those are his words. 2588. It was suggested, I think, by the Chairman that you might spread out your hours, that is, keep your market open from 10 to five ?—Yes. 2589. Am I not right in thinking that the general tendency of business lately-within the last 20 years or 30 years-has been to concentrate the hours ?—Yes. 66 2590. In our fathers' time the market began very much earlier than it does now and went on much longer?—Yes. 2591. And one of the undesirable results of spreading out the time at all events was to make a very long luncheon interval ?—Yes. 2592. In which a great deal of idleness and other disagreeable and objectionable habits took place?—Yes. 2593. And it is a great advantage to a business community or trade to concentrate the business hours?—Yes. 2594. And that it is a general advantage to work hard while you are at work, and to go home early? To work hard while you are at it, and to get away in reasonable time. (The Witness withdrew.) 2595. Have 16 June, 1908.] Mr. JOHNSTON. Mr. J. A. JOHNSTON called in; and Examined. Chairman. 2595. Have you prepared an abstract of the different hours prescribed in Statutes-the provisions of different Acts ?-Yes; I have. 2596. Can you certify that as correct?-I think I can certify its correctness; I say that, but I cannot undertake to say that it is an absolutely complete list. It is the best I have been able to do in the time at my disposal. I think I have got most of the English Acts, but I have not had time to look through the Acts relating only to Scotland and Ireland. The Bill applies to the United Kingdom. But I should like to mention there are a great many more cases in which hours as specified by bye-laws and regulations and other rules of that nature, which are made under statutory authority, than the cases in which you find the hours mentioned in the Statute itself. Of course there are scores and scores of bye-laws. 2597. For instance, let me take one point. You mention the "Vestries Act, 1831"?-Yes. 66 Mr. Pearce. 2602. May I take it that whenever you say "9 a.m." 4 p.m." all through the list you refer to what is 9 o'clock ?--I ought to have mentioned that. As a matter of convenience, I have used “a.m.' a.m." and "p.m." throughout, because the words of different Statutes vary so much. They very often say " from 9 o'clock in the morning till 4 o'clock in the afternoon." 2603. May I take it that wherever they mention a time they always use the word "o'clock" ?— Mr. Pearce-continued. [Continued. Not always. In quite recent Acts you will find "9 a.m. in the Act of Parliament, "9 a.m. 4 p.m." 2604. You take it as a Barrister that that means "9 o'clock or "4 o'clock"?-I think that is provided for by Act of Parliament-the Statutes (Definition of Time) Act, 1880. 2605. Exactly. So that wherever you find in an Act of Parliament "9 p.m." you take it that that means 9 o'clock p.m. by the definition of the Statute?-I think so. That is Greenwich mean time. 2606. And the same remark applies, I suppose, to all the large number of cases in which the hours are fixed by orders and regulations and bye-laws made by Government Departments ?-Certainly that applies. that applies. That Statute I referred to applies not only to Acts of Parliament, but to deeds and other legal instruments. Revd. E. DE M. RUDOLF called in; and Examined. Chairman. 2612. You are Secretary and Founder of the Church of England Incorporated Society for for Providing Homes for Waifs and Strays?-I am. 2613. How many boys and girls has your Society under its charge?-We have now nearly 4,000 boys and girls. 2614. Who are distributed over how many homes?-About 104 homes in various parts of the country. 2615. The object of your Society, I take it, is to provide destitute children with homes and superintend their moral and material up-bringing? -Yes, it is so. Chairman-continued. 2616. How many children have passed through your homes ?-Between 13,000 and 14,000 children altogether have been provided with homes since the establishing of the Society. 2617. And so far as you know, the large majority of them are now responsible and respectable members of society ?-That is so. 2618. I suppose these waifs and strays have no parents?—The majority have no parents: they are either waifs and strays through destitution or through over-crowding and immorality on the part of their belongings. They are rescued in order to prevent them from drifting |