I would like it for my own business; I would dislike it for my fellow brokers, because it would be against their side. If I may say another word-I do not know whether I am wearying you--I would say, with all due deference to the framer of the Bill, that I think to alter 20 minutes backwards and forwards is a great drawback to the Bill; and one of my friends, in making the experiment, broke his dining room clock in the attempt. What I would respectfully suggest would be this (but, of course, this is quite against the west of Liverpool): On the 31st December to put the clock forward one hour, and the whole world would go on as usual-there would be not an atom of a change; your servant would call you at seven o'clock in the morning, as he is in the habit of doing; you would not look at your watch, but would get up, and at night, say at 11 o'clock, you would look at your watch, and say: "It is time to go to bed." You would get up at seven o'clock, but you would be really getting up at six by the sun, and again by the sun you would go to bed at 10 p.m. Something has been said about cows not giving good milk earlier in the morning, but I do not think there is very much in that, and as to the railways, they would start their trains an hour earlier. In my opinion, it would be a radical but easy change. I have consulted a great many of my colleagues about it, and if any change is to be made this is the one thing practicable. Chairman-continued. 2383. Your present time of closing at Liverpool is what?-Four o'clock. 2384. Four o'clock by the sun ?--Yes. 2385. The time under the Bill would be five o'clock-the nominal time ?—Yes. 2386. So that, instead of nominally closing at four, you would then close at five according to the new time?-You close at five by the watch, but you close at four by the sun. 2387. There is nothing to prevent the Liverpool Cotton Association saying that they would close at six, which would be five by the sun?-That would lengthen the hours of work very much. 2388. Yes. But it would entail that work at a time when, according to your own showing, all those centres to the east of Liverpool would be benefited ?--Yes. 2389. Very materially?—Yes, that is my private view. 2390. You have given a very powerful argument in support of that view. What I am trying to put to you is this, that although superficially this Bill may entail an hour's extra work, the advantages to all those business centres east of Liverpool would be so great that it would conceivably to a great extent neutralise the disadvantages of working an hour more than you do now ?-In answer to that I must assume that the Continental centres are as highly interested in Liverpool as I am. They may say: Well, we have got so accustomed not to depend any longer on Liverpool. We like Liverpool to guide us more or less, but we depend upon New York. It is a question which I cannot answer. It will enable them to get the opening of the Liverpool Market earlier naturally, and reach them before they go to their dinner; but as to whether I have a right to say it will be the highest advantage to them, I dare not say that, because they may say: We have learnt to do without Liverpool; we have been in the habit of doing without Liverpool, and we will go on doing without Liverpool. 2380. The Committee may take it as your own strong view that this alteration of the clock permanently by one hour, on the 31st December, would be the most agreeable?-The most advan- 2391. Are you referring to the whole of Europe? tageous. It would not put us right with Mid-Yes, the whole of Europe. I can only answer : European time. If we could get our friends in Holland, Belgium, Spain, and Portugal to alter also which they might do-there is no telling what might happen; it would put the whole of Europe on one hour; it would enable us―we, in Liverpool, at any rate, who are, so to speak, at the most western point of Europe-in a better position, so far as those are concerned who are doing business with Rotterdam, for instance. There is a difference in the clock in Rotterdam between the railway time and the town's time; people get accustomed to it. In Rotterdam there is a difference of 20 minutes between the town time and the railway time. If you are told that a train leaves at 20 minutes past two, you can stop in your hotel till 2.20 p.m., and yet catch the train. People get accustomed to it. 2381. What we want to know very much is the real inconvenience which an alteration of the clock would cause to business transactions with North America ?—It would simply operate as I have said in the beginning of my remarks; there is a large business done between three and four o'clock in Liverpool; it is then between 10 and 11 o'clock in New York. The opening of the New York Market reaches Liverpool between three and four o'clock, and between that time there is an immense arbitrage business done. 2382. What is there in the Bill to prevent the continuance of that?-We should have finished at the time New York opened, according to the Bill, during certain months of the year. 2392. Why should they say so ?-The Liverpool Market would be closed, but they could operate in New York all the same. It will be, of course, to them an advantage to know the Liverpool prices an hour earlier; distinctly. 2393. So that it comes to this, that although nominally the hours would be different, really the hour of closing would be exactly as it is now? -Yes. 2394. With this difference, that you start an hour earlier ?-I should not call three o'clock five o'clock; we should still go on closing at four o'clock, but it would not be four o'clock. 2395. You may call the closing hour five. Why not?-We should have to add an hour. 2396. No. You would not have to add an hour. Five p.m., the Bill hour, would be four by the sun, and your closing time ?-Yes, if we closed at four, but if we closed at four by the new time, we should be closing at three. 2397. No, you would not close at four; you would close at five ?-I understand if the Bill is carried 503 16 June, 1908.] Mr. HEMELRYK. [Continued. Chairman-continued. 2401. No, I do not. I mean what took place at the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce on the 13th of this month ?-Yesterday? 2402. I do not know when it took place; on Thursday, I see?-Of the Chamber of Commerce -I apologise I beg your pardon, I thought you were talking of us. 2403. I am talking of the Chamber of Commerce, where seconded the resolution ?—Yes. I you seconded the resolution. 2404. I see it stated here that: "The Secretary reported that the Commercial Associations affiliated with the Chamber had been asked for their views on the Bill," and had had replies from the Liverpool Wool Brokers' Association, the Liverpool Society of Chartered Accountants, the Liverpool Society of Incorporated Accountants, the Incorporated Trade Protection Society of Liverpool, the Tobacco Trade Section of the Chamber, and Messrs. Joseph Crosfield and Sons, Limited, and that they were in favour of the Bill? Yes. 2405. And that the Liverpool Steamship Owners' Association, the Liverpool Shipowners' Association and the Liverpool Stock Exchange took up a neutral position with regard to the Bill"? Yes, that is it. 2406. And that "the Cotton Association would consider the Bill at their meeting on Monday "?— Yes, that was yesterday. The Cotton Association by an important majority voted against it. 2407. They voted against the Bill? They voted against it. 2408. Your resolution, which was moved in the Chamber of Commerce, " approves of the principle of the Bill, and would be glad to see the measure become law, provided that effect can be given thereto without serious injury being done to important trade interests." That was carried by 17 votes to seven ?-Yes, that was my recommendation put to the vote so as to show what the opinion was of what one might call representative commercial men. We thought, on the whole, the idea was a good one, only we differed as to the Mr. Pearce-continued. method, and we also, naturally, differed on the point that it would entirely ruin or annihilate business. We could not think the Bill would proceed. 2409. I gather from what you say, that all the business that would be affected westward would be telegraphic business, not correspondence ?— But it is nothing to do with the post. All the cotton trade business is carried on by telegraph. 2410. Have you considered, with reference to a permanent change of one hour, that that means giving up Greenwich meridian in Great Britain? -Yes, I have considered it. 2411. You do not see any harm in that ?—I do not see why we should, unless you regulate the ships by Greenwich time. If I go from Brussels to Cologne, I know it takes four hours. 2412. You think Greenwich mean time might be still maintained for ocean purposes?-Yes, certainly. 2413. But that we should begin work an hour earlier in Great Britain generally by this alteration of the clock all the year round ?-Yes. The people of Rotterdam go by Greenwich time, yet the town does not; the Dutch railways go by Greenwich time. 2414. Do you notice that that is not the principle of the Bill. The principle of the Bill is to take advantage of daylight, and when daylight is not available to give it up. If you shift an hour on the 31st of December, which is the date you put, you are making eight o'clock in the morning, when it is quite dark, nine o'clock, and you are not getting any advantage, so far as the use of daylight is concerned. No use at all?—No. con 2415. No use at all. It is no advantage, as far as daylight is concerned?—I have never sidered that. One gets up by electric light now, and it would be the same then. 2416. The object is to promote the use of daylight, instead of artificial light?-I understand that-yes. 2417. If you make the alteration of an hour all the year round, you have seven months out of 12 in which the change is detrimental to the very object of the Bill. Do you see?-Yes. I understand, but I venture respectfully to remark that it is just putting back the clock that would upset business relations very much-that would be detrimental. It is the putting back of the clock that I object to. 2418. In September ?—Yes. 2419. That is merely going back to the present practice?-As the Bill stands-at the end of September. We are as we were. 2420. Yes? That, I think, would be especially with people trading-in fact, trading with the whole world-not trading in England alonethat would not be affected thereby, but to trade it would certainly be vexatious and troublesome, and lead to mistakes and lead to misunderstandings and quibbles and bickerings. 2421. Allow me to put this to you: Would it not be rather better not to make any change at all than to make a change of one hour all the year round. What is the good of that ?-You ask my opinion as to whether I think we should add the hour, because from my own present business 121 16 June, 1908.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE DAYLIGHT SAVING BILL. Mr. Pearce-continued. Mr. HEMELRYK. business personal point of view it would suit me very well; and I do not go on the principle of health. Mr. Holt. 2422. I want to ask you about the Chamber of Commerce Resolution. Your Resolution has this Clause in it: "Provided that effect can be given thereto without serious injury being done to important trade interests"?-That is it. 2423. Therefore, I may take it, upon that, that the Chamber of Commerce had it in their mind that it was probable that if the Bill passed as it is, without any steps being taken, there might result serious injury to important trades? -Certainly, Sir. 2424. That was in their mind. I have seen it stated that the Corn Trade Association were strongly opposed to the Bill. Is that so?—I do not know. 2425. I see it is also stated in this Report ? -If the Secretary read it out it cannot be a mistake. 2426. You have told us that these other Societies were in favour of the Bill?-Yes. The Secretary read that out. 2427. The Secretary read it out at the meeting? -Yes, and we must take that as gospel. 2428. That is a very important Trade Association ?—The Corn Trade Association is certainly very important. 2429. Now this Eastern business. I take it you cannot conduct any business with China by telegram the same day ?-No. 2430. And if the Bill passed into law, you would not be able to do so ?-No, it would just enable them to get the Liverpool "calls" before they "calls" before they go home to their residences-the Shanghai merchants. But then I do not think we ought to take China into consideration. I have mentioned it incidentally, but after all, the business with a country like China is not really conducted by telegrams, it is only exceptional. On the other hand, as regards the Manchester merchants, I do not know whether you have a Manchester witness, I consider that the Manchester business would benefit by it, and those who do a very large business in Indents, and other goods with India, knowing the Liverpool market, in early telegrams put their price to Bombay; it takes 5 hours for a telegram to go to Bombay, and I know, having been there, that the Bombay merchants go home, like they do everywhere else, at 12 o'clock, and they come back about 3 o'clock. Then they have the Liverpool opening. Some of them come back at 2 o'clock-many of them. If they have the Liverpool opening then, it is still time to act upon it, they have still time to telegraph their orders to Liverpool. 2431. I quite agree that there would be an advantage?—Yes. The same at Manchester. 2432. Now, as regards the Continent, you have told us that they ought in your business, when the telegrams are sent off of the opening of the Liverpool Market, to reach the Continental spinning centres just before their dinner hour?-Just before their dinner hour, if we were open an hour earlier. 2433. As it is to-day?—Now it reaches them nearly at dinner time. M Mr. Holt-continued. [Continued. 2434. I think the Continental habit is to have a very long dinner hour, is it not?—Yes, generally two hours. 2435. Is not there rather a tendency to give that up? Perhaps in some centres, but I do not think in spinning centres. 2436. Are not Amsterdam and Bremen rather falling into our habit of a short lunch hour?Yes, but I am speaking of great centres, which still retain the old-fashioned way. They have their lunch or dinner and a sleep, and then come back again to their offices. 2437. Still, is not it rather probable that the English customs reach Amsterdam and Bremen ? -I do not think so. In Amsterdam a man does not get up like a spinner at five or half-past five in the morning. 2438. The only other question I want to put to you is this: the Liverpool cotton market opens at 10 o'clock and closes at 4 o'clock ?—Yes. 2439. And that is done by resolution of the cotton market ?—Yes. 2440. I think it is agreed that they would have to keep open until five o'clock if this Bill passes?-To continue working under the same. conditions. 66 2443. It is quite possible, is it not, that the Association might say, Oh, well, ten to five is too long; we will make it eleven to five " ?-They might. 2444. In that case all your advantages as regards the Eastern business would disappear? Yes, it would disappear, but the advantage to the Western trade would remain exactly as it is. 2445. At the same time all the advantages you expect to get could equally be obtained by resolution opening the market at nine o'clock in the morning?—There is this difficulty: I do not think the cotton market is likely to say they will open at 11 o'clock. A great deal depends in the cotton business on the light of the day by which to see the substance of cotton samples. The more one gets past mid-day, the more uncertain the light becomes. The light is very good in the morning between 10 and 11; between 11 and 12 it is less good. Therefore, I say it is to their advantage the earlier the light the better. Mr. Richards-continued. 2449. You would not be surprised to learn that they have two hours dinner time here ?But then they are on the spot. Telegrams do not have to take three or four hours, as they do to get through to different countries. It is not analogous. You cannot compare the two at all, under the circumstances. The Continental spinner is a different man to the Manchester spinner. He is a man of different breeding; different bringing up. 2450. Exactly; and if this class of people were to say that each particular market or body of merchants were to regulate their market by resolution, would not that create some confusion? -I do not understand what the drift of your question is. Mr. Richards-continued. [Continued. 2451. You have had a question put to you about these things being done by resolution. If they were to depart from the present every-day custom, rather than adopt the policy of the Bill, which is a universal measure taking in the United Kingdom, would not that be a system more likely to create confusion-if each institution or body were to adopt for themselves, willy nilly, independent resolutions, rather than have one general Bill?-In that way I am afraid I have a peculiar idea; I believe that if the House of Commons passed the Bill, and it were made into law, everybody more or less would accommodate themselves to it. That is my view. (The Witness withdrew.) Mr. C. DUKINFIELD called in; and Examined. Chairman. 2452. You come fully empowered to represent the views of the Liverpool Cotton Brokers' Association ?-That is so, Sir. 2453. Has there been what you would call a "full-dress debate" upon this subject?-There upon this subject ?-There was a very largely attended meeting yesterday, and quite a full debate; in fact, so full that it took up practically the whole of the hour that was devoted to general business, and we had to adjourn the rest, but they passed a resolution of which I have a copy here. Perhaps you would like to have it. The resolution was: That the members of the Liverpool Cotton Association oppose the passing of the Daylight Saving Bill, as it would, if put in force, seriously interfere with their trading with the American markets." 2454. Will you kindly develop the main objections?—The main objections are that we should close, under the new system, at 20 minutes to 3, which would be officially called 4 o'clock. New York does not open till 3 o'clock, that is 10 o'clock their time, and we should miss practically the whole of that important business, and it is very important business indeed. To give you an example: Some years ago, when there was some rather bad стор news, I remember one instance where orders for 65,000 bales came. in at 20 minutes past 3 to Liverpool, which left the time in which they were to be executed the last 40 minutes of the market. That is a very big transaction; it is not often we get anything quite so big as that in one line, still we often get orders for 20,000 bales spread about over considerable quantities, but if we are to retain this business we must keep the " Future market open at least seven hours. We at present keep it open six hours. Nearly two years ago we tried the experiment of keeping it open six and a half hours, and within a week or ten days we had a very numerously signed requisition from the trading members to please go back to the old time of four o'clock. The Future" markets of New York and New Orleans only keep open five hours and five hours and twenty minutes respectively. They say the strain is so great that they cannot stand it. Perhaps some of you gentlemen may not have seen the way the business is conducted in the cotton "Future" Exchange now a Chairman-continued. days. There are a lot of men standing round in a ring like an auction, more or less the whole time. The members stand round the ring the active traders and the strain is very great indeed, so great that after the bell rings at four o'clock on a busy day they are pretty well exhausted, and therefore they could not, I think, keep the market open for a longer period, and if they opened it later in the day then they would lose the advantages of the Bill, which my friend Mr. Hemelryk referred to in the earlier Continental business; and in addition to that, if Parliament passed this new time officially, no doubt the manufacturers and spinners would begin at an earlier hour, and they would want to come down at an earlier hour, so that they would work at the early end of the day, and unless we were prepared to sacrifice an extremely valuable part of our business then we should have to work extra long hours, which I do not think we could do. It has been suggested that we might get the two markets of New York and New Orleans to co-operate with us—to accommodate us by opening half an hour earlier. 2455. In consequence of this Bill ?—In conse quence of this Bill,-yes. It has been suggested by some members who are in favour of it, but I doubt very much whether they would do so. I know New York pretty well, and many of the important traders there in the summer months either go up the river, or down the coast, or somewhere to get out of the extreme heat, and they would like to come down later rather than earlier. New Orleans, as it is, opens at five minutes past nine, and it would be asking them rather too much to ask them to open at half-past eight, and if the Bill is passed we then have to choose between two things we have either to open and close 80 minutes earlier than now, and sacrifice the afternoon business, or close by the clock new time an hour later, in which case the new Act would be of no use to us. 2456. Which would mean that you would have to start an hour and twenty minutes earlier; that is what it would mean. Yes, that is what it would entail?-I am suggesting that we should open an hour later to counteract our working later the other end of the day. 2457. What 16 June, 1908.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE DAYLIGHT SAVING BILL. Chairman-continued. Mr. DUKINFIELD. 2457. What sacrifice would that involve-the East Liverpool business?-The East Liverpool business-yes. 2458. It would actually involve the sacrifice of that portion-the East of Liverpool businessthat I admit ?-The difficulty, I think, would be this that if we accommodated ourselves to the new Bill by closing an hour later, even if we opened an hour later, all our neighbours-all the neighbouring trades-would be all going home an hour earlier than we should. 2459. Generally speaking, you know there are several trades and enterprises in the country whose hours of opening and closing vary very considerably; for instance-(what shall I say?)there are certain trades which open much earlier than other trades-trades that open at eight, some open at nine, some at ten ?—Yes. 2460. These trades manage in some way or other to fit themselves into the general requirements and convenience of the country. May I therefore put it to you as regards the Liverpool Cotton Association, in view of the advantages which (let us assume) this Bill would confer upon the general welfare of the population of this country-do you think it would be too much to say that the Liverpool Cotton Association might endeavour to adjust their hours of opening and closing, even though it might involve a certain extra amount of work, in order to secure the advantages of this Bill?-Well, they would have to do so; that is to say, I do not think the Liverpool Cotton Market for a moment would throw over the American side of their business. 2461. The afternoon business?-The afternoon business. 2462. That is obvious?-It is too valuable altogether. 2463. Precisely ?-You see the American crop is 12 or 13 millions as against the East Indian crop of four or five millions, consequently it is much the biggest portion of the trade. 2464. So that if you did conform to the provisions of this Bill, the sum and substance of the change, or of the sacrifice, if you like to call it so, would be that you would have to start work an hour and 20 minutes earlier-you would have to start an hour and 20 minutes earlier by the sun than you do now ?-Yes, but what about the closing, Sir? We should have to keep open. 2465. You would have to keep open-that is so-you would close at exactly the same time as now ?-Exactly the same hour; you mean work the same hours as now? 2466. Yes, you would start work an hour and 20 minutes earlier-let us drop the 20 minutes? -Yes; an hour earlier. 2467. You would start work an hour earlier than you do now by the sun ?—Yes. 2468. And you would close at exactly the same time as you do now. What is your hour of closing now?-Four o'clock, we open at 10 and close at four. 2469. You close now at 4 o'clock. Under the Bill you would close at 5 o'clock, nominally vou would close at 5 o'clock under the Bill?--Yes, we should nominally close at 5 o'clock under the Bill. M Chairman-continued. 123 [Continued. 2470. By the sun you would be closing at 4 o'clock exactly, as you do now?-Yes, quite so, but I do not think we would stand opening an hour earlier. 2471. We have come down to bed-rock now?That is where the trouble comes in. 2472. The whole inconvenience of this Bill would amount to your having to start an hour earlier. It would not interfere with or in any way damage your afternoon business?-I beg your pardon. 2473. I say the effect of this Bill-the sum and substance of this Bill-would be to cause you to start an hour earlier in the morning by the sun than you do now ?--Yes. 2474. And you would close by the sun?-If we opened according to the new clock time. 2475. If you opened according to the new clock time you would open by the sun an hour earlier than you do now?—Yes. 2476. You would close at exactly the same time as you do now ?-That would give us an extra hour's work in the market, would it not? That is the way I take it. For instance, we now open at 10 o'clock, and if we opened at 10 o'clock by the new clock time it would really be nine o'clock by the present time, would it not? 2477. Yes, that is so ?-Now, if we closed at four o'clock by the new clock time we should be closing at three o'clock. Then we should be missing all our American business which we could not afford to do, so we would have to do one of two thingswe would either have to miss the American business or we would have to open an hour later and close an hour later, and I think that if the Bill were passed that is what we would be compelled to do. 2478. Do you think an earlier opening by the sun would be essential to your business. Would it be necessary to start an hour earlier? Is there sufficient work to do ?-Well, it might be, Sir, in this way: As I suggested at the beginning of my remarks, the spinners and manufacturers, if they adopted this new time, would be all coming down at 10 o'clock on the opening of the market by the new clock-which would be nine o'clock present time. 2479. Yes?—Then they would have to be attended to, and unless we are going to sacrifice the American end of the business we have got to remain open until 5 o'clock by the new clock time, so that it would be 10 to 5 instead of 10 to 4. That is the dilemma we are in. 2480. And you think there will be sufficient business caused by the spinners starting to work earlier to make it worth the while of the brokers to do that?-Yes, I think there would. Then there was just one little point I wanted to mention. You know spinners make use of this late afternoon market to a very large extent under the new condition of business which has grown up during the last few years, whereby the spinner buys cotton on "call." Instead of buying it outright, he buys it in points "on futures"-say 50 points on "futures," but he fixes the time when he will take it. It is at his option to fix the time when he will call" that cotton, as he says, between the time of purchase and the time that is given him 66 18* in |