Mr. Pearce-continued. that it is going to have a detrimental effect on the business of the Stock Exchange.

2279. You have already said there is nothing in the Bill to prevent your going on as you now do, exactly? There is nothing to prevent it except that the business will be less efficiently done. 2280. Why? And the London and the New York markets will not be open simultaneously. 2281. But why should the business be less efficiently done ?-Because the markets are not open simultaneously.

2282. But you would keep your market open? -We hope we shall not have to keep the market open for an extra hour. That would mean extra hours for everybody.

2283. You would not have to keep your hours differently to what you do now; the hours would be named differently, that is all ?--We should if we wanted to be open at the same time as the New York market was open-we should have to keep open an hour later.

2284. Later than you do now ?-Later than we do now.

2285. I think you are quite mistaken there ?I think not.

2286. If you call "4 o'clock" "5 o'clock " what difference does it make to you ?-It would not be open; you would have to keep open the extra hour.

2287. Then I think you have misconceived the situation ?--I think not, Sir.

2288. One moment; you know that every market really keeps its own hours, irrespective of other business. For instance, Covent Garden market is carried on in the very early morning, as you know ?-Yes.

2289. And you know, too, that Smithfield Market-the great wholesale meat market-is carried or quite irrespective of all other businesses? -Yes.

2290. So with the Fish Market ?-Yes.

2291. And generally; there are markets which are kept open at their own times in the day, irrespective of other classes of the community? -Yes.

2292. Now if you wanted to do business with America you would find a way to do that business in what is nominally up to now the hour that you consider 5 o'clock ?-It depends. Sometimes if business is active they sometimes stay later. 2293. You can keep those sometimes, whatever the hour is by the clock, surely?--Undoubtedly the members will stay as long as there is any business to do, whether they do it in the Stock Exchange or in the street. What I want to point out is this-that it is exceedingly inconvenient that the street business should be encouraged. The effect of this Bill would be to encourage it, and it is also extremely inconvenient for the purpose of catching the country post.

2294. Let me put it to you about "post time." You can do all your correspondence now, cannot you? You do your correspondence now without inconvenience ?-Yes.

2295. We are not proposing that you should not continue to do so. Surely you could keep your present hours; you would not be obliged to make

Mr. Pearce.-continued.

[Continued.

any change. However, that we have already discussed?We think it would be exceedingly inconvenient.

Chairman

2296. Does not it seem odd to you that the Committee of the London Stock Exchange should take such a diametrically opposite view as to the probable effects of this Bill to that taken by the London Chamber of Commerce, Liverpool, Newport Sheffield, and other centres ?--I think possibly the interests of the London Chamber of Commerce-the people who compose it-are different to the interests of the Stock Exchange. We have written this memorandum in our own interest.

2297. Exactly ?--And without consultation with the Chamber of Commerce.

2298. Precisely. I did not suggest that there had been any consultation-there could not have been, obviously. You take a diametrically opposite view to that which they take ?—I do not know; perhaps the London Chamber of Commerce have not thought it out very deeply.

2299. Would not you think there was some direct connection between commerce and legitimate speculation ?-Certainly.

2300. They are to a certain extent interdependent ?--To a certain extent.

2301. Therefore to me it seems rather inexplicable that while one commercial-and the most important representative commercial-body take such a wholly favourable view of the Bill-and that body a body which, as you now say, is more or less dependent upon commercial transactionsshould take a wholly different view ?-It may be curious, but we have got to look at it from our own point of view.

2302. Now do you consider that it would be quite impossible for the London Stock Exchange to fit its time-its hours-to meet the general convenience of the public, assuming this Bill does respond to the general convenience of the publicdo you think that would be an impossible thing? -I think the result would probably be that we should have to keep open an hour later in the evening to attain the same result that we do attain at the present time, and that would be a great inconvenience in lengthening the hours of the work of the members and of their employees.

2303. I do not quite see that. I think you rather misconceive the scope and range of this

Bill.

What you would have to do would be to meet an hour and twenty minutes earlier ?-We should have to begin an hour and twenty minutes earlier as the clock stands at the present time. We should have to add that automatically in accordance with the law of the land, and if we wanted to do business with New York for a simultaneous hour, we should have to keep open an hour later.

2304. Will you allow me to to point out to you that if this Bill passes and you have the clocks put on an hour, you will leave the Stock Exchange at six according to the new time, instead of leaving at five, according to present time ?-We leave at four now-that is to say, the Stock Exchange closes at four.

2305. You close at four now ?—Yes.

2306 If

2306. If this Bill passes you will leave at five, which would be exactly the same time. It would simply give a different name to the hour. It would not be a minute longer than four ?-What will ten o'clock, New York, be?

2307. Still the same, except that you would call it by the name of a different hour ?-.“ Ten o'clock New York would be "four o'clock instead of three; ten o'clock there would be four o'clock here, which would be the hour at which we close.

2308. You close at four o'clock now ?--We close at four o'clock now.

2309. You would then nominally close at five; you would not be later than now. Does not that strike you as being a reasonable forecast of the effect of the Bill?-I think it would mean that we should have to come an hour and twenty

miuntes earlier.

2310. Yes, that is so?-And it will for our own purposes be almost necessary to keep the Stock Exchange open for an extra hour, in order to have a simultaneous time with New York, and that will give an hour or an hour and twenty minutes' extra work during that time.

Mr. Pirie.

2311. You stated in the course of your evidence that the Paris Exchange has various hours, according to the seasons of the year?--Yes, I can give you that exactly, I think, if you will allow me. Paris is usually open from 12 to 3; from 1st July to 30th September it is only open from 12 to 2.

2312. Then the varied hours have been found to act without undue inconvenience to the other commercial centres of the world; they are recognised as such, and known throughout the world, are they not?--Yes.

2313. Do not you think it likely that, in view of the importance of London as a Stock Exchange centre, if the London hours were to be altered other Stock Exchanges would would not find it in their interest also to more or less agree to the alteration, or go half-way to meet the alteration effected in London ?--I think it is unlikely. The only Stock Exchange that would have to alter would be the New York Stock Exchange, and they already open at the early hour of ten o'clock, and as we have pointed out in our memorandum, during the summer months almost all the brokers live out of New York some distance. I think it would be impracticable to get the New York Stock Exchange to open earlier.

2314. If they were very anxious to do the business, or to continue to do the big business they now do with London, they would probably make some effort to meet the change?-I think you must ask some one from New York Stock Exchange what they think about that.

2315. Had your Committee, in framing this memorandum, in view the possibility of the inconvenience which they say would be caused, being an inconvenience which would largely disappear after the commencement of the change? -I do not think they went into that in the memorandum, but I can give you my own opinion about it if you wish it: the Committee did not M...

Mr. Pirie-continued.

consider that in any particular; they considered what would happen if the Bill came into force.

Mr. Holt.

2316. I imagine that after these cable transactions with New York have been passed through, it is very often necessary to communicate with the clients the stock-broker very often has to communicate with his client at once, has not he? -Yes.

2317. To ask him, perhaps, to increase his limit, or whatever it may be ?-Yes.

2318. Therefore, if the Stock Exchange was required to be kept open to 5 o'clock, instead of 4 o'clock, it would also frequently be the case that the client would have to keep open to 5 o'clock, instead of 4 o'clock, would it not?-I think everybody who was interested in American securities would have their hours increased proportionately to those of the machine, which did the work.

2321. Do not you think you agree with me that if this Bill passes, the effect of it will be, not for members of the Stock Exchange to remain an hour later, but to start an hour earlier? They will have the extra hour's work at the beginning of the day, and not at the end of the day ?--They would have it at the beginning of the day, and they would have to stay just as late as they do now at the end.

2322. Precisely; they would not stay a minute longer than they stay now; they will begin earlier?

They would begin an hour and twenty minutes earlier; that increases the hours of employers and employees by one hour and twenty minutes.

2323. That is just it. Now could you tell the Committee whether you have any views as to four alterations of twenty minutes each, so as to give an opportunity of 20 minutes' simultaneous opening, and for some mutually convenient re-adjustment of business with Western markets; have you considered that at all?--I do not think I quite grasp the question, Sir.

2324. That is to say, the Bill provides for an alteration in four steps of one hour and twenty minutes ?-Yes.

2325. Let us put that aside and say that we should have an alteration of 20 minutes to start with in one hour. On the 2nd or 3rd of April you alter the clock 20 minutes; that would be the sum and substance of the whole of the alteration. In other words, instead of two or three, or four, making an hour and 20 minutes in all, you would alter it 20 minutes only ?— That would be less objectionable, of course. 2326. That would be less objectionable; there 17*

would

2330. I suppose you have, in common with the general population, taken some interest in the provisions of this Bill?-Yes, Sir.

2331. Will you kindly oblige the Committee by developing your views as to the general scope of it ?---I think, speaking generally, that it makes for the health and the happiness of the majority of the community. It seems to me that, especially in the case of children-to give them an hour's more daylight is a very important matter. In the morning it could not matter to them going to school an hour earlier, whereas to have an hour during the day in which they could play and get fresh air is of enormous importance, just at that time, to health. I think the next generation of Britishers would be the better for having had this extra hour in their childhood. I think the general standard -probably of health and of stature would be perceptibly increased by it, and I think for the adult it is a splendid thing for every man in summer to get back to his home in time to look after his little garden, or whatever his particular hobby might be, after his day's work. I think it would make for the happiness of family life if the head of the family could take his wife and children for some little excursion on an ordinary day-whereas at present his time is so limited by the time he gets back home that it is hardly practicable. I think in a thousand ways it would act for good, and, as far as I can see, the objections to the contrary, however valid they may be, are still in a very great minority as compared with the points one might put forward of advantage.

2332. Have you considered the effect it would have upon the increased opportunities of enabling people to go in for musketry firing-volunteering? -I think that would be one of the many excellent by-products of the Bill-that there would be time for civilians to learn rifle shooting-which might perhaps get over some of our military difficulties.

2333. Could you tell the Committee your view as regards the method of altering the clock suggested by the Bill?—I read Mr. Willet's views with some care. I could not quite understand that there was any particular reason for four 20 minutes no doubt he had something in his mind when he wrote it-no doubt there was some reason for it; but it struck me on simply reading it that a single alteration of an hour would be a round

Chairman-continued.

number, and cause less confusion and attain almost the same result.

2334. His view, of course, is on record; that is, that where people forget to make the necessary adjustment, the mistake of an hour would be a far more serious matter than a mistake of 20 minutes -that there is no magic in four alterations of the clock---or practically eight alterations-in fact, that is one of the points about which considerable difference of opinion has been elicited from witnesses who had come to give evidence before us; so that we might take it that your view is that an alteration of one hour-an alteration all at oncewould be a far more desirable thing than a gradual alteration?-I speak with no authority about this, but it struck me on reading it; it seems simpler.

2335. On the face of it, it would seem obviously so?-Obviously simpler, I think.

2336. Could you say whether that alteration of an hour should be a permanent one, or should be gone back upon in the autumn ?-It struck me that when the time came for putting the clock right again there would be very general dissatisfaction. Everybody would have fitted in by that time with the new arrangement, and they would not at all like to go back to the old system, which would have given them less daylight for 10 months in the year, and under the new system I should imagine one would have more daylight than under the old.

2337. It has been suggested that if you have this hour alteration permanent you would, to a great extent, neutralise the advantages which would be gained during the summer months from the operation of the Bill, that in some instances people would have got so used to early rising and going to bed late that a good deal of the work might be performed by artificial light, instead of by daylight. As far as we have dealt with the subject, have you any views to offer about that?I never thought of that side of the question really-it is quite new to me.

2338. I suppose you have travelled a good deal?-Yes, I have travelled a good deal in my life.

2339. So that the minor inconveniences resulting from more or less frequent alteration of the clock do not strike you as being worthy of consideration? -Well, I have travelled in the Arctic seas, where there was six months' daylight without any dark at all that is the other extreme.

2340. Have

2356. In spite of the daylight, then, you practically kept clock time ?-We kept clock time undoubtedly.

2357. Both for your work and other work?—

course.

Mr. Pearce.

2344. Assuming that the "hour" change was made, have you thought what particular day would be the best upon which to make it, in the spring?-It struck me that it ought to be some very well marked day, either the first of the month or the first Sunday in the month-possibly the first Sunday in March-that that would be the best.

2345. Let us examine what that means for a moment. The object of this Bill is to use more of the daylight than is at present used?--Yes. 2346. The latter end of March we get the equinoxes?—Yes, the latter end of March. 2347. In the East and all over the world, if you alter the hour by the equinox, you take the morning to begin work and work into the darkness, is that so? I see. I really never thought the I really never thought the date out with any care. 2348. Suppose I put it to you that railway companies and other institutions-other services -thought that the latter end of April, or the last Sunday in April, was the best day for the change of one hour, would you be disposed to agree with that?-I think if you could conciliate opposition it would be worth while doing it.

2349. The only object is to secure the use of more daylight?-Exactly.

2350. Therefore, there would be no use altering our present time practice in the winter months? -No.

2351. In fact that would be a detriment to the if we took and worked into times of purpose darkness, so that that suggests, does it not, that we should revert to that "hour" at some time in the course of the autumn ?—Yes.

2352. Have you thought when the best time in the autumn would be--may I put it to you, for instance, the first Sunday in September?I suppose if one got six months of the improved time it would be as much as one could hope for. 2353. Would not the increased daylight, between the last Sunday of April and the first Sunday in September, be as much as we could make fair use of? That would only give 4 months, would it not?

2354. You would like to have more?--I should like to have six months at least I think that would be better.

2355. Just as a mere matter of curiosity, how did you regulate your work in the Arctic regions in the six months of daylight?-Occasionally

we

turned day into night deliberately-we occasionally had breakfast at supper time, and inverted the whole thing-the night in some way was pleasanter than the day-the light was more mellow.

Mr. Holt.

2358. I gather from what you originally said your first idea was that it would be a good thing to adopt mid-European time--that is, permanently make our clocks an hour earlier ?-I suppose mid-European time would just about make the difference of one hour.

2359. That is so ?-I did not commit myself to permanently " because I really had not thought it out very carefully; my idea was that something between six and eight months would be practical; I think that would carry the clock over well into artificial light.

2360. You did, I think, rather suggest this: that when people had enjoyed two or three months of this altered clock they would be so pleased that they would never let you alter it back again? -I think they would want another month or two. I do not know about "permanency."

2361. The great advantage that you estimate would be obtained from this was, as you suggested, that children would get more daylight, and that that would improve the physical stature of the nation; that is what you said? That was one point.

2362. What do you think would be the effect upon small children three or four years of age? Do not you think it is probable the effect would be to postpone their bed-time in the case of the working classes, where there is only the father and mother to look after them?--I hope not; I do not think one need fear that.

2363. If the father and mother are going to enjoy with the other children this additional daylight and going to stay out of doors and disport themselves, is not it probable that the very small children would be kept out of bed an undue length of time ?—Well, after all, it is only an hour, is it not? I do not think it would be any very serious detriment to them.

2364. You do not think it would do them the smallest harm ?—Even presuming that in a certain number of cases it occurred, I should not think an hour's shortage of sleep in the case of a little child would do it any great harm; probably the child would make it up in the morning or during the day.

2365. This time of the year in the North of England you would. not say it was dark before half-past nine or 10 o'clock, would you?-No, I suppose about half-past nine at present.

2366. Is not that long enough for most people? We are just at Midsummer at the present moment, and, of course, the argument lies just at present, but it makes a great deal of difference six weeks before or six weeks after Midsummer.

2367. Yes, that is the time it really makes the difference, in May and August ?-Yes, that is so.

(The Witness withdrew.)

2368. You

16 June, 1908.]

Chairman.

Hornby,

2368. You represent the firm of Hornby, Hemelryk and Company?-Yes, Sir.

2369. You are a Justice of the Peace and Consul for Japan ?—Yes.

2370. And you were a Vice-President of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce ?—I was, Sir. 2371. And formerly Chairman of the Liverpool School of Commerce ?--I was.

2372. You are also the senior partner of Hornby, Hemelryk and Company, Cotton Brokers, at Liverpool?-I am.

2373. In the course of your very important business have you had occasion to require any changes in the hour of work between Liverpool and America ?-Not between Liverpool and America.

2374. With what countries is your business chiefly concerned?-My principal business lies east of Liverpool, with the whole of the Continent, with Egypt, with Asia Minor, with Central Asia, with India, China, and Japan.

2375. Have you some business with North America?-Very little.

We

2376. Nothing to speak of, comparatively? Not more than a couple of thousand a year. call that very little "I mean to say a thousand a year commission.

66

2377. Do you know whether the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce have fully considered this matter?-Yes, because I seconded the resolution at the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce.

2378. You were present at the meeting?-Yes. The resolution I seconded was to the effect that we believed in the Bill-in the principle--but that we all disagreed as to the exact terms of the Bill-that is as far as the Chamber of Commerce is concerned; but I am not here as the representative of the Chamber of Commerce; I am simply here, as you did me the honour to call me, in my individual capacity, therefore you must not attach the weight to my evidence that you would if I had been asked to represent the Chamber of Commerce or the Cotton Exchange. The Cotton Exchange is represented by my friend Mr. Dukinfield, who sits in the room. You have done me the honour to ask me as the head of the firm of Hornby, Hemelryk & Co.

2379. Will you kindly favour the Committee with your views as to the general principles of the Bill? Well, I may say that I think to put the clock forward is to those people who, like myself, do a very large business with the Continent and all countries east of Liverpool, as far as China, a distinct advantage; because we brokers, and those houses who act as brokers like myself, telegraph every morning the opening of the Liverpool market to the whole of the Continent. I send to something like two thousand people telegrams every morning, and the consequence is that if our opening market reaches certain centres an hour earlier, orders would be sent to Liverpool which otherwise are dispatched to New York. The fact is our Liverpool 10 a.m opening telegrams are delivered in most of the spinning centres about 11.30 to 12 noon, and when these spinners, or for the matter of that cotton merchants, return

Chairman-continued.

[Continued.

66

from their midday meal and siesta, and make up their minds to cover or hedge in futures, it is too late to operate in Liverpool, because Liverpool closes at 4 p.m., and therefore they send their orders to New York. Let the opening reach these same spinning centres one hour earlier, and all these orders will be sent to Liverpool in sufficient time for execution before the 4 p.m. close. The whole of the cotton trade is done on a system of "hedge,' and a system of futures." Contracts are made sometimes months and months, and even years, ahead by the weavers with the spinners, by the spinners with the cotton merchants, and by the cotton merchants with their brokers. All distant, far-ahead contracts, everything there is based on the system of "hedging by futures," and consequently if we opened an hour earlier, I am bound to say it would benefit us; it would also enable telegrams which I send to Bombaywhich I send to Moscow-which I send to other places, which shall be nameless, but in Mid-Asia— to reach in time to enable them to operate in the Liverpool market. It is quite true that supposing we opened an hour earlier by the sun, and not by the clock, we should also close an hour earlier, and my own long experience of 48 years of the Liverpool cotton market is that orders that come, say, between three and four o'clock in the afternoon, from the Continent and east of Liverpool are very few and far between; they make up their minds earlier in the day, but we get most of our orders between ten and one in the

morning. On the other hand, the majority of the cotton brokers in Liverpool buy at places west of Europe. I heard the evidence of the Secretary of the Stock Exchange of London while I was sitting here, and it is very much the same evidence as the representative of the Cotton Market will present to you on our behalf. They wait for the opening of the New York market, which represents a terrific-an immense---business. I do not think any man has any idea of what is transacted between the two markets; consequently, I say that this 20 minutes Bill would curtail it to a certain extent during two months; it would make it "nil" during the other two months, and business, therefore, would be impossible. Then, again, men who deal in actual cotton-who sell shipments to the Continent every day, and in the New York market-wait until the New York market closes; they have to wait till a quarter-past and 20 minutes past eight in their offices until they get the New York

close"; they then make up their prices of c.i.f. cotton for the Continent, and send their telegrams off late at night for the spinners, or early in the morning; and that is the most influential for my business, which is a pretty large one; still, that department is not the most influential. My department is not the most influential. The other side is the most influential. We are dealing with America principally. That is the business I look at; therefore, as you have done me the honour of asking me my views (I am, so to speak, between two stools), I say