sented to the public free. There is no question that they afford delight and recreation to many thousands, the Council's only regret being that it is not able to extend them. I am satisfied that if the Daylight Saving Bill becomes law the result will be that the attendance of the public to hear the bands will be almost doubled, and thus more value will be obtained for the money spent by the Council in providing the music, and while people are listening to music it keeps them from public-houses and similar places where they would otherwise spend their leisure hours." He goes on to say that he would rather have three changes of half an hour each on the first, third and fifth Sundays in April, or the first and third in April and the first in May, than four changes of 20 minutes.

2216. What other statements are there ?-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle writes as an author and medical man.

Mr. Pearce.

2217. Will you read his statement, please?"It seems to me certain that very great happiness and health would be conferred by such an arrangement. The improvement of the national physique which would arise from so many hours in each year being spent out of doors, which are at present spent in artificial light and close atmospheres, would, I think, justify the change. It seems to me very strange that in the course of the world's history so obvious an improvement should never have been adopted." Then Mr. Alexander Farquharson, of Broadlands Road, Highgate, Timber Importer, President of the Timber Trades Federation of the United Kingdom, says: "During the 40 years I have been in the timber trade in London, owing to the nature of my business I have not been able to leave my office, as a rule, before 6.30 p.m., with the exception of Saturday, when I have the customary half holiday. I arrive at my home in Highgate about 7.20 p.m. There is no time left after I take my dinner for open air recreation in the daylight, and though my house is within five minutes' walk of a golf course, I am never on it of an afternoon, save on Saturday. To the average man, physical exercise, preferably in the open air, is essential, if he is to keep his body fit and his nerves under control, and although I am opposed in principle to Sunday games of any kind, I can quite understand and sympathise with men situate as I am, who are driven to play on Sunday. I sometimes try getting out before breakfast, but the household arrangements do not adapt themselves to this practice, besides which it has the further disadvantage of tiring one's self at the commencement of the day, when a business man needs to be freshest and strongest. Were Mr. Willett's Were Mr. Willett's scheme to pass and the time given after the day's work for an hour or more's exercise in the daylight, I would consider it of inestimable advantage from the point of view of health to all business men with long hours in their offices."

Chairman.

2218. Is there anything else that you wish to bring before the Committee ?--I have one from Mr. Edwin Turner Cottingham, of Thrapston,

Chairman-continued.

Clock and Instrument Maker. I do not know whether you have heard enough about clocks?

2219. Yes, I think so. We have heard three experts upon clocks ?-Then I have a statement from the Rev. William Goodman Edwards Rees, Vice-Chairman of the Salford Higher Education Committee, a Governor of the Royal Technical Institute, Vice-Chairman of the Manchester and Salford Christian Social Union, Chairman of the Salford Schools Canteen Committee, Member of the Executive of the Manchester and Salford Citizens' Association, and of the Sanitary Society, Vice-President of the National League for Physical Improvement, Witness before the Committee on Physical Deterioration, Secretary of the 1908 Church Congress, writer of certain articles on Social Questions and questions affecting the health and well-being of the people.

2220. I suppose that we may take it that he is generally in favour of the Bill?-Yes. He is generally in favour of the Bill.

2221. You need not take the trouble to read it ?-Thank you.

Mr. Pearce.

2222. Have you any from objectors ?—No, I keep asking for them, but I cannot get any. thought of putting an advertisement in the papers.

Mr. Richards.

2223. Yes, you should advertise for some ?I think that that is what I had better do. Then I have a statement from the Reverend E. de M. Rudolf, who is the Secretary and Founder of the Church of England Incorporated Society for Providing Homes for Waifs and Strays. That is a large society. He says: "I am satisfied that if the proposals contained in the Daylight Saving Bill were to come into operation they would be of very great benefit to the health and happiness of these children, as it would place at our disposal so many extra hours of daylight and sunlight wherein the children might enjoy recreation in the open air," and so on. He is generally in favour of the Bill. Those are all. Then I would like to inform you, Sir Edward, that since your meeting on Thursday last I have received from the Town Clerk of Wakefield a letter informing me that the Council have passed a resolution in favour of the Bill, and stating that the Borough Member should be asked to support the Bill when it is again brought before the House of Commons. The Urban District Council of Leyton have also passed a resolution to the same effect. I have also received a letter from the Belfast Wholesale Merchants and Manufacturers' Association, Limited, stating that at a meeting of the General Committee of the Association they decided to support the Bill, and to ask each of their four sitting members to give their best support to it also. I have also a formal notification from the Town Clerk of Aldeburghon-Sea, in Suffolk, informing me that the Corporation there have passed a resolution in favour of the Bill.

Mr. Holt.

2224. Have they not a golf links there, which is very pleasant and interesting?—Yes, there are golf links there. Then I have a letter from the St. Anne's-on-the-Sea Tradesmen's Association. “The Daylight

Mr. Holt-continued. Daylight Bill with which you are associated was under discussion by the Committee of this Association, and a resolution was adopted approving of the measure for securing length of summer days, and wishing you success in your efforts. It was realised that the trades of the country, particularly the shopkeepers, would derive considerable benefit by the proposed change." We have heard several times that shopkeepers would not benefit by the alteration.

2225. This is a case of golf links again, is it not? -This is from a Tradesmen's Association, and they say that they realise that shopkeepers would derive considerable benefit from the change. These have all come since last Thursday. I have a letter from the Minehead Miniature Rifle Club, stating that their Committee passed a resolution in favour of the Bill, and that a copy of it has been sent to the member for the division, the Right Honourable Sir Alexander Acland-Hood. The resolution is: "That this Committee approve of and give its support to the Daylight Saving Bill, and that the Right Honourable Sir Alexander Acland-Hood, Bart., M.P., be asked to give it his

Mr. Holt-continued.

[Continued.

support." I ain being inundated with these resolutions. I have a letter from the Caterham and District Rifle Club, stating that the Committee are in favour of the Bill. The letter continues: "I may mention that the Club consists of about 300 members, and that the Committee includes a J.P., a C.C., and several officers in the Regulars, or Terriers.' I have a letter from the Motor Union of Great Britain and Ireland. They have sent me a copy of what they sent to you, Sir. I do not know if anybody knows who the Harlesden 18 are? The last letter is from a gentleman who represents the Harlesden 18. They have passed a resolution in favour of the Bill.

2226. I confess that there is only one of these gentlemen whom I should like to see, and that is the gentleman who is connected with the Waifs and Strays' Society-Mr. Rudolf-who advances what I think is an astounding proposition, that it would be a good thing to get the small children up earlier. I suppose that they are small children ?— There are 4,000, he says.

(The Witness withdrew.)

2227. You come to-day in your representative capacity, in order to give evidence on behalf of the Stock Exchange of London ?—Yes, Sir.

2228. Now will you develop your arguments as to the view taken by the Committee of the Stock Exchange on the facts and the effects likely to accrue from the passage of this Bill?I think they are fairly fully laid out in this memorandum, a copy of which has been sent to you. This memorandum has been prepared by the Committee for General Purposes of the Stock Exchange. The points on which your Committee, Sir, desired information, are these:-1. The effect of the Bill on the Stock Exchange. 2. Especially on the Western Markets. 3. Relative volume of Eastern and Western dealings, and of persons employed therein, also of Western to whole.

Chairman-continued.

4. Possibility of adjustment of Stock Exchange hours to the new requirements. 5. Considerations which limit and regulate Stock Exchange hours. 6. Possibility of earlier hours for clerks and other employees. 7. The number of cables passing between New York and London. 8. Conclusion. On the first of these points the General Purposes Committee of the Stock Exchange say: 'This Bill, if passed, would inevitably create a dislocation of Stock Exchange business in the chief business centre of the world. The London Market is pre-eminent among the Stock Exchanges of the United Kingdom, but in all probability the conditions of this Bill would also adversely affect the business of the Provincial Exchanges. It is proposed, however, to consider the question from a London standpoint only. From its geographical

geographical position, aided by other causes, London is the Clearing House of the world in Stock Exchange matters. Business, both for investment and speculation, centres in London from the Continent of Europe, from the United States and Canada, from South Africa, and to a lesser degree from India, Australia, and Japan. Investors and speculators in these countries find it convenient to send the bulk of their orders to London, where, owing to its central position, they find a ready market. Speaking generally, it may be said that the bulk of international business is done in three groups of securities-Foreign Government Securities, American Railway Securities, and Mining Securities. The American and Colonial operator deals almost exclusively in the securities of his own country, while British and Continental operators deal in all, and there is a free market in all in London. Placed as it is, London attracts business in American and South African Securities from all parts of the Continent, and in American Securities, to a large extent, from America itself. The provisions of this Bill would, twice or more in each year, cause an alteration of British time, which would not be current in these countries, and to which their people would not be accustomed. This would inevitably cause irritation, and would tend to business being done direct with the country of origin of the Stock to be dealt in, where such disturbing conditions did not exist and consequently business would drift away from London." Then the second point. The effect of the Bill" Especially on the Western Markets": "As far as the Western Markets are concerned, the principal centre for Stock Exchange business is New York. The hours of business there are from 10 to 3, and there being five hours difference of time, the London Market, which closes in the Stock Exchange at 4 p.m., is open for one hour (3 to 4 p.m.) during the New York Session (10 to 11 a.m.) During this hour enormous transactions take place, which are continued in the street after the Stock Exchange is closed. As shown in paragraph 7, to which attention is particularly directed, this forms a most important part of the business of the Stock Exchange, and the Bill would throw it out of gear during six months of the year, in five of which the two markets would not be open simultaneously. In times of crisis, such as occured last Autumn, it would be of urgent importance that the two Exchanges should be simultaneously open for at least some portion of the day." As to (3), "Relative volume of Eastern and Western dealings, and of persons employed therein, also of Western to whole": The Committee for General Purposes regret that it is impossible to estimate the relative proportion of Eastern to Western business, nor of the latter to the whole of business of the Stock Exchange, but it may safely be said that the amount of British capital invested in Western Securities is enormous, and any alteration adversely affecting international dealings would impair the freedom of markets, and would thus be most detrimental, not only to those engaged in Stock Exchange business, but also to those members of the public who have investments or dealings in such securities." As to "(4) Possibility of adjustment of Stock

66

Chairman-continued.

Exchange hours to the new requirements," and "(5) Considerations which limit and regulate Stock Exchange hours": "The difficulty might to a certain extent be obviated by keeping the Stock Exchange open later during the summer months, but this would be extremely inconvenient, as it would practically compel the markets in other securities to remain open, and would not allow time for members to attend to their correspondence, and prepare contract notes for the day's business before the departure of the mails. It is unlikely that the New York Stock Exchange would be able to adapt itself to London hours by commencing earlier; it already opens at the early hour of 10a.m., and during the summer months practically the whole business population lives at some distance out of New York, coming in by steamer and train, and it must be remembered that, owing to difference of latitude, the summer day in New York is considerably shorter than in London." Then as to "(6) Possibility of earlier hours for clerks and other employees ": "The effect of the proposal would seem to be that a large proportion of members and their employees would have to be present one hour and 20 minutes earlier and, in order to deal with the American business, to stay just as late as they do at present." (7) The number of cables passing between New York and London": "From enquiries at the office of the Anglo-American Telegraph Company, which with the Commercial Cable Company has direct access to the Stock Exchange, the Committee learn that the average number of cables received at that office, during the hours the New York Stock Exchange is open, is 1,000, of which about half are sent or received between three and four o'clock, messages and their replies being at times received in a very short space of time, viz., one to three minutes. The number naturally varies with the activity of business, as the enclosed table will show.

16 June, 1908.]

[Continued.

Chairman-continued.

that it would in very many instances cause longer hours to both, and that its adoption would be detrimental to the business interests of the Institution.-R. W. Inglis, Chairman, Committee Room, The Stock Exchange. 9th June, 1908." 2229. You say that this Bill would inevitably create a dislocation in the Stock Exchange business in the chief business centre of the world. In what way? Will you kindly develop your arguments in support of that contention ?-In the latter part of the paragraph you will see. From its geographical position, aided by other causes, London is the Clearing House of the world in Stock Exchange matters." Business centres here from various parts of the world, and if that were altered in any way, it would not be to the same extent the Clearing House."

2230. Surely the main principle of the Bill is to increase the hours of work during daylight, and consequently so far from restricting the volume of business operations with London, it ought to have the effect of enlarging and multiplying it, I should have thought ?--That is not the view of my Committee, Sir.

2231. Could you tell the Committee whether the Stock Exchange have any particular markets in view when they make that decided statement ? -Oh, undoubtedly the Western Markets and and principally the New York Stock Exchange, with which such a very important business is done.

2232. May we take it that there will be an advantage as regards operations with the Eastern markets and the Far Eastern Markets?-Not to the same extent.

2233. Nothing to counterbalance the extreme disadvantages which you foresee are likely to accrue from this Bill ?-Nothing to counterbalance. May I just discriminate for one moment between Eastern and Far Eastern markets?

2234. Yes ?-I think the Far Eastern Markets would be so far out of time that they would hardly come in at all. The Eastern Markets, including South Africa, would be to a certain extent helped by the Bill.

2235. But not the Far Eastern Markets ?-The Far Eastern Markets seem to me to be too far to the east.

2236. Do you consider that that market would be wholly excluded from the scope of business operations on the Stock Exchange for one day? -Anything like Australia.

2237. A place like Shanghai, for instance ?Shanghai--it would be too far to the east.

2238. You don't think there would be any telegrams reach you in time for business hours from those places ?—I have not gone into that very carefully. What is the difference of time of Shanghai ?

2239. Something like seven hours, is it notbetween seven and eight hours ?-Yes, I think it is about seven hours.

Mr. Holt.

2240. I should think it is more. I think it is eight or nine ?—I think I have got it here somewhere.

Chairman.

2241. To all intents and purposes, whether this

Chairman-continued.

Bill passes or not, the proposed alteration, I may take it, would not facilitate business with the Far Eastern markets ?—No, not with the Far Eastern markets.

2242. Have you anything else to say from the point of view of local operations ?-I think I should like to draw attention to the last clause of paragraph 1 of the Memorandum. In concluding that part of the case our Committee say, "Placed as it is, London attracts business in American and South African Securities from all parts of the Continent, and in American Securities to a large extent from America itself. The provisions of this Bill would, twice or more in each year cause an alteration of British time, which would not be current in these countries, and to which their people would not be accustomed. would inevitably cause irritation, and would tend to business being done direct with the country of origin of the Stock to be dealt in, where such disturbing conditions did not exist, and consequently business would drift away from London."

This

2248. The importance of London as a business centre and the convenience of the present hours at which business is done in London is surely a mere matter of custom, is it not?--I think not, Sir. The brokers receive their orders from the Continent-Vienna and Berlin-early in the day, and are able to execute them here, and if they require to be executed in New York they are then passed on to New York.

2249. Do you mean to say the importance of London as a Stock Exchange business centre is largely due to its position ?-Yes-not altogether, of course, but largely. There are a number of other things come in, of course.

2250. Would it not be the case that what one market would lose in a change of this sort the other would gain ?—Yes, to a certain extent.

2251. I see in your Memorandum you say that business is "continued in the street after the Stock Exchange is closed"?—Yes.

2252. That is tantamount to an admission that business would be done if the Stock Exchange did not remain open ?--But it is an exceedingly inconvenient process of doing business.

2253. That is a matter that is so exceedingly inconvenient

16 June, 1908.]

Mr. Pirie-continued. inconvenient to the Stock Exchange that it could not easily be remedied by starting a little earlier and continuing a little later?-No; the inconvenience arises not only from inconvenience to the public in having the street blocked up, but also from the inconvenience of post time.

2254. Of course the numbers affected adversely by the operation of this Bill with regard to the Stock Exchange are infinitesimally small when compared with the numbers that would be affected favourably if this Bill were brought into operation. No doubt you have got to make yourself acquainted with the condition of things existing before and see the number of working men affected by this Bill?-That is for you to decide, Sir. 2255. You are aware of the unanimous tendency up to now ?-I am not, Sir.

2256. Might I ask if this Memorandum, drawn up by the General Purposes Committee of the Stock Exchange, represents the interests of the clerks or merely of the principals ?-It represents the interests of " business," and "business" involves involves the prosperity of clerks and principals. The final clause, I think, of paragraph 8 of the Memorandum more or less sums up the view of the Committee: "In conclusion the Committee desire to point out that while they think the scheme might in some cases be of personal advantage to individuals, both members and clerks, they are of opinion that it would in very many instances cause longer hours to both, and that its adoption would be detrimental to the business interests of the Institution."

Mr. Holt.

2257. Of course the Stock Exchange transactions with New York vastly exceed the Stock Exchange transactions with Australia or Shanghai?

-Yes.

2258. There is no comparison between the amount of business ?-None.

2259. It is very clearly set forth here that you consider it of the greatest possible advantage that there should be an hour a day at which the London and the New York Stock Exchanges are open simultaneously ?-The greatest possible.

2260. If, for the sake of argument, the London Exchange was not open at the same time as the New York, but that the Paris Exchange was, would not that have a powerful effect in the way of diverting business from London to Paris ?-The Paris Bourse, I think, would not be open at the same time as New York, and it is not open now.

2261. And it is not open now at the same time? -Not at the same time as New York; it closes before New York opens.

2262. When does the Paris Exchange close ?It closes at three o'clock.

2263. Then that may partly account for the very large business that the London Exchange does ?Undoubtedly it does.

2264. Your view would be that if you were deprived of the advantage of being open for an hour a day at the same time as New York, you would lose a lot of that business ?-I consider so.

2265. Therefore the probable effect would be that a good many of the clerks employed on the Stock Exchange would lose their situations ?That is quite possible. May I for one moment, in M

Mr. Holt-continued.

113

[Continued.

answer to your question about the time of closing, say-The Paris Bourse, I think, is open from twelve to three during ten months in the year, but in the summer I believe it is open only from twelve to two.

2266. The Paris Exchange is not, under any circumstances, open anything like as long as the London Stock Exchange ?-No.

2267. When does the London Exchange open? -The doors are open at half-past nine, but business cannot be recorded until a quarter to 11, and the markets practically open according to the state of business. If business is active, there are very often dealings at 10 o'clock or a quarter past 10, in less busy times at half-past 10 or a quarter to 11. The official hour for marking business is quarter to 11.

2268. Quite so; so that if it was thought to be generally an advantage to the Stock Exchange, there would be no difficulty whatever in putting it an hour earlier without any alteration of the clock--no difficulty in making your hours a quarter to 10 to 3-if you thought that was a benefit to you ?--Well, I do not think our members would like it, because many of them live out in the country and we had a good deal of opposition when we made the small alteration from 11 o'clock to a quarter to 11 a few months ago.

Mr. Pearce.

2269. You have time enough now for the correspondence and contract notes which are referred to in clauses 4 and 5 ?--Yes, Sir.

2270. And a mere alteration elsewhere would not prevent your going on exactly as you do now, would it?-I do not quite grasp the question.

2271. An alteration elsewhere in the practice of business would not prevent your going on exactly as you do now up to the same natural time?—No, I do not think it would--an alteration elsewhere?

2272. Outside your market-outside the Stock Exchange ?-An alteration of time, do you mean? 2273. No, I mean an alteration in the conduct of business?-I am afraid I do not quite grasp your meaning, Sir.

2274. What is there in the Bill now to prevent your keeping the same time as you do now, if this Bill passed ?-Nothing.

2275. Then where does the harm come in ?Because in the first instance the New York and London Markets would not be open simultaneously under the proposed change.

2276. That is the rub. Did not you say too much when you said there was nothing in the Bill to affect it, because your argument on this is that there is something in the Bill which would affect it which is right ?-I should like, if I may, to have the question actually clear; I do not think I quite grasp your point. Would you mind repeating it, Sir?

2277. I am only anxious to get at the real state of affairs ?-Certainly.

2278. I have no predilections or views either way as a promoter of the Bill. I only want to know what effect it is going to have ?--I think it is clearly laid down in this memorandum