2 June, 1908.]

[Continued.

Chairman-continued.

between distant countries. I am familiar with cabling to distant countries. I have to do it all the time. We know quite well what the differences in time are, and I do not think we shall be likely to forget that there is another difference of an hour and 20 minutes. If I am cabling to-morrow morning to South Africa, for instance, I have to reflect in one way. I am obliged to think differently when I am cabling to South Africa from when I am cabling to the United States or Australia or New Zealand, but I do not find it a terrible strain on my capacity or on that of my staff to have to think. I was sorry to hear Sir William Ramsay say what he did about thinking. We are generally able to reconcile with our time the time in the country to which we want to cable, and we cable accordingly.

2106. You have to think Imperially and internationally as well as locally?—Yes, and we do not find it any great strain upon us.

2107. Your distinct view is, after considering all the circumstances of the case, that the advantage would immensely counterbalance any possible trouble or confusion that may arise during the earlier stages of putting the Bill into operation? Enormously, I think. I think that probably working people may be a little troublesome at the outset, but those of my own workpeople to whom I have spoken on the subject are delighted at the prospect of getting another hour and 20 minutes of daylight. They think it will be worth taking all the trouble to get that.

2108. How many men do you employ ?-We have a large number of women equally interested. In men and women, boys and girls, in the two works we have about 2,000.

2109. Have you a large proportion of married women in your employ?-A fair proportion. I think that from 15 to 20 per cent. of the women would be married women.

2110. With regard to them, the advantage of being able to leave off work earlier and getting more daylight would be a tremendous boon, would it not? It would be a very great help to them. They would like it very much.

Mr. Pearce.

2111. Could you give any estimate of the proportion of your transactions abroad, and your transactions at home, in relation, for instance, to telegraphing?-Naturally the transactions at home are enormously larger. You are thinking of ordinary transactions?

2112. Yes?--I should think that 5 or 6 per cent.

Mr. Pearce-continued.

2118. Have you weighed that in thinking about the proposed change of one hour ?-Yes, carefully. 2119. You prefer to make the change ?—I prefer to make the change.

Mr. Holt.

2120. What hours do you work in your factories? We begin at seven o'clock and close at six, with one hour-from 12 to one-for dinner.

2121. Is that the same both in London and Liverpool? Yes.

2122. What in your judgment would be the difficulty which would prevent you from starting in the summer months at six o'clock and closing at five. Is there anything to stop your doing that? -Nothing whatever.

2123. Why do you not do it ?-Because we prefer to work from seven to six. I have had a pretty long experience of changing hours. We have sometimes commenced an hour earlier in the summer than in the winter. After being at six for something like 30 years my colleagues and I and the workpeople, who are entirely with us, have come to the conclusion that closing at six in the evening is the best arrangement of all that we have tried. We consult our workpeople. If our workpeople said to me next week, "We would rather work at different hours," I should like to do what they wished, because it would probably make much

We

more difference to them than it would to us. used to begin at eight in the winter and close at seven. We have given that up in the last three or four years, and the workpeople prefer to finish at six all the year round.

2124. Have you tried opening at six and closing at five ?-No. I think that it would be extremely inconvenient if we were to do it, and other people were doing the regular thing-extremely

inconvenient.

2126. But I understand you in favour of the Bill ?-It would be difficult for us, even if we closed our offices and works half an hour earlier than some other people do. We must be more or less uniform.

2127. But I understand from you that you are in favour of the Bill?-Yes, I am.

2128. And the effect of the Bill would be that,

2113. Not more than that ?-I should not think more than that.

2114. There would be inconvenience in wiring internationally with four changes in April, would there not? One week it would be 20 minutes ? Yes, that would be so-20 minutes.

2115. Another 40, and another 60, and another

80 ?-Yes.

2116. That would last for nearly a month ? Yes.

2117. The same thing would happen back again in September ?—Yes.

would actually be working from 5.40 to 4.40 ?Not at all. I am going to work still from seven to

2 June, 1908.]

Mr. Holt-continued.

2131. Why?—If everybody would do it, it might have a somewhat similar effect; but if I were to do it and other people were to remain where they are, it would be extremely inconvenient. I would not attempt to do it.

2132. That is perfectly clear. Then the use of the Bill entirely depends on everybody keeping to the same nominal hours?—I think it largely depends on that.

1233. And if everybody did not stick to the same nominal hours the Bill would be pretty nearly wastepaper?-I think that its utility would be largely destroyed. What is the use of passing a Bill if it is not to be acted up to?

2134. Acting up to it consists in maintaining the same nominal hours; therefore you must be of opinion that it is the nominal hours that attract people, and not the real hours ?-But the nominal hours will be the real hours. I am not going to change. I am going to begin at seven o'clock and close at six all the time.

2135. You are ready to begin at seven o'clock and you are ready to close at six, and you really do not care what relation the terms seven and six have to the meridian at all?-I do not know that I do.

2136. As long as they are called "seven and six," one time is as good as another ?—No, certainly not. If one time were as good as another, we should have the same amount of daylight all the time. It is because one time is bad and another is good that I want the good

one.

2137. At the same time you would always call it the same thing ?-I certainly think that that is the most convenient thing to do.

2138. I gather from what you have said that you think that the effect of the Bill would be to considerably increase the habit of tobacco smoking? -I did not say that at all.

2139. Yes, excuse me, you did?—No, I certainly did not.

but if you

2140. You said that you expected it would tend to increase the consumption of matches?—I said that if you wished me to discuss my own particular matter, I was bound to tell you that I should think that with more daylight there would probably be more consumption of matches out of doors. That is perfectly true; but if suggest that I am going to tell you that men, because they are out of doors, are going to smoke more tobacco than they will smoke if they are indoors, I shall have to go into a very long story with you, because I have opinions as to that also. I have no grumbling with the men who smoke indoors-they are awfully good fellows-but there is not so much wind indoors as there is out. I shake hands with every smoker, Mr. Holt, that I meet.

2141. I daresay that you do ?-And he is very grateful to me.

2142. No doubt he is; but from what you said, I rather gathered that you were of opinion that the gentlemen who were watching football matches would be smoking a good deal more than they would if they were indoors ?-No, I did not say that at all. You put those words into my mouth. If I have not made myself clear M

Mr. Holt-continued.

105

[Continued.

I am sorry, but I have nothing to add to what I said as to that.

2143. You said that they would use more matches? Yes.

2144. I only wanted to know why you thought they would do so. You say that you did not mean that they would smoke more tobacco ?No, I did not mean that. Please do not put me. down as saying that I think this Bill will promote the smoking of tobacco, because I have not said. that.

2145. I put you down as having said that you think that under the Bill people will use more matches in the open air ?-Yes, but do be fair to me. I said perfectly clearly that it had been argued by my friends and commercial men that it was strange that I should be in favour of the Bill, because with less darkness there might be less consumption of matches. I say that there are compensations in most things, and I think that the extra daylight will probably compensate me. Ask me after two years' operation of the Act, and I will tell you exactly what has happened.

Mr. Richards.

2146. You say that your hours now are seven to six, and that the dinner hour is from one to two ?-Twelve to one. We have two stretches of five hours, and one stretch of five hours on Saturdays.

2147. Twelve to one is the only break that you have ?-That is the only break.

2148. You have no break for breakfast or tea? -No.

2149. At what time do you lock out ?-Six.

2150. Yes, but I mean in the morning; up to what time do you allow the operatives to come in? They can come in right up to seven o'clock. We have tried it in every conceivable way, and we are on the very best of terms now that we do not allow any margin.

2151. I was wondering what the effect would be if you made up your minds to open the factory at six, say, and have the dinner hour at 11. Mr. Holt does not seem to see the difficulty, and I should like you to explain the difficulty?-If that was confined to my works it would be extremely inconvenient. I do not know how the wives, for instance, would fare if they toddled home at 11 o'clock and found their husbands coming home at 12 to get their dinners. With the dinner hour at the same time, if they are near they meet one another. We have husbands and wives in our works, but a good many of our wives have husbands who go to work elsewhere. Those who are near enough get home for dinner just after 12.

2152. You would not be surprised if they revolted and refused to come at six, for instance? -They would revolt. They would not do it and could not do it.

2153. That is the reason, I suppose, why in factory towns certain hours are fixed. There are a variety of factories all working practically the same hours, and as far as possible members of the family who can get home to dinner all get home about the same hour, or within a few minutes of each other, and it is a convenience ? Yes, it is obviously a great convenience.

16

2154. With

Mr. Richards-continued. 2154. With regard to the building trade this does not affect it, because generally the men employed on a job take their meals with them and eat them there, and do not go home to dinner? -Just so.

2155. I have been a factory operative, and I can say from my experience that whatever we do we like to act in conformity with one another?I think it is absolutely necessary for the smooth working of commerce that we should have uniformity.

2156. Do you think that if such a Bill as this were passed by the majority of men, although they were not forced to adopt it, would respect the recommendation ?--Yes. I think that they would very soon find that they must. I think that a large majority would begin by taking advantage of the operation of the Bill, and that they would be speedily followed.

2157. Especially if it was clamoured for by their operatives, as you found in the particular instance with your own people who were anxious to leave off at six o'clock ?--Yes.

Chairman.

2158. Were you present at the meeting of the Council of the London Chamber of Commerce when a resolution was passed unanimously in favour of the Bill?-I am extremely sorry that I was not able to be there.

2159. You have heard of it?-I know that it was unanimously passed; or I think there was one objector. That is what I heard; that in a large meeting there was one who did not agree. I would be very glad if Sir Albert Rollit could explain to us why he objects. I know him quite well, but I really do not know what his arguments may be. I have not met him on this matter, but I will.

Mr. Willett.

[Continued.

2163. You were asked by Mr. Holt whether you thought that the effect of the Bill was likely to be nil if it were not acted upon by the large majority of the industrial organisations of this country ?-Yes.

2164. I put it to you whether, if the Post Office and the banks and the railways agreed to carry out the provisions of the Bill wholeheartedly, you think that that would practically mean for the Bill ?-Absolute. I absolute success think that 95 per cent. of employers of labour would immediately follow, and the remaining five per cent. would be cranks who always object to any change and to taking any trouble.

2165. Would you tell the Committee whether you have any reason to assume that it would materially interfere with the arrangements of the Post Office ?-My opinion would be that the Bill would not interfere. I think that the Post Office people would very soon settle down to the altered circumstances, and would not find it difficult.

2166. You do not know of any other organisation beyond those that I have mentioned whose action would be a determining factor either for or against the Bill ?-No, I do not. 2167. We are very grateful to you. (The Witness withdrew.)

Chairman.

2168. Your occupation is that of a schoolmaster ?-Yes.

2169. You are the headmaster of the Raunds Wesleyan School, an Associate of the College of Preceptors, a Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society, and a member of the British Astronomical Association ?-Yes.

2170. In what particular aspect of economic life have you considered the provisions of the Bill?-From the aspect of public elementary school life. We begin our morning session at nine o'clock, and terminate it at noon. Then, we begin again in the afternoon from 1.30 to 1.45, and terminate at four o'clock. The result is that in the summer months the temperature of the rooms becomes very high-sometimes between 70 and 80 degrees. It was 80 degrees yesterday. They are well-ventilated class-rooms. During the afternoon's work, especially from 2.30 onward to four o'clock, the temperature in the summer months is most unsatisfactory from the point of view of the children. They are listless and inattentive, and the art work is badly done through perspiration. If we were to begin an

Chairman-continued.

hour and 20 minutes earlier, we should begin the morning session at 7.40, and finish it at 10.40, The afternoon session would then begin at 12.10. We should terminate school for the day at 2.40. and the result would be that we should avoid working during the worst hours of the day, which would be given to the children for extra play.

of

2171. What are the difficulties in the way any school adopting those hours at certain times. of the year, to suit their general convenience ?— I do not see any difficulties whatever.

2172. Except use, wont and custom ?—I think that they would soon get into it.

2173. Do I understand that yours is a nonprovided school, or is it a Council school?—It is a non-provided school.

2174. There would be nothing to prevent you altering the hours to suit the convenience of the children now without legislation ?—No, I do not think there would be; but I do not think the children would come.

2175. They would not come ?-I think not, because it would upset the family arrangements. 2176. Mainly caused, I suppose, by the fact

of

of getting up at the ordinary hours ?-Certainly. 2177. Whereas, if this Bill were in operation, it would tend to make people get up earlier and consequently children would come earlier to school?-Yes.

2178. What other material advantages would accrue to school life generally from the Bill, do think? you We have heard of great advantages in the way of saving eye-sight from the fact that there would be less artificial light used. Does that apply to schools of the description of yours? -No, it does not, because all our work is done in the daylight, even under the present circumstances, so that it would make no difference there. Then, again, the effectiveness of the school work is undoubtedly in proportion to the amount of time that the children spend out of doors. For instance, if it is a wet day, and there is no recreation time, the work is always done worse, because the children have not had their run about outside, and I think that these extra hours that they could spend outside, instead of in bed, probably would result in better work.

2179. What is the average age of the children in your school?-13. There are very few beyond

13.

2180. Would you tell the Committee whether you have any particular choice as to the way of giving effect to the provisions of this Bill?— Do you mean with regard to the 20 minutes, or the hour?

2181. Yes?-Are the alternatives an hour and one hour and 20 minutes ?

as

2182. That depends on people's points of view. Some people have recommended a whole hour a permanent alteration, and others have recommended an whole hour as a six-monthly alteration ?—I think that four 20 minutes would be better, certainly, than the hour. If we only take the hour, we shall lose 20 minutes. An hour does not seem a very great deal, but an hour and 20 minutes seems considerably longer. I do not see that there is much to choose between the four 20 minutes on the four Sundays, and putting the clock on once. As one of my lads said, it would bring Sunday tea nearer to dinner, and he preferred that. It would be an hour and 20 minutes earlier.

2183. He was a precocious youth ?—He preferred that.

Mr. Holt.

Mr. Holt-continued.

2194. You say that you come from Raunds ?Yes.

2195. You are not governed much by factory regulations there, are you ? Is there not a fair amount of out-door work ?-There is much less than there used to be.

2196. You think that the children would benefit, and that you would benefit too, if you and they could do your work in the cool of the morning ?I am certain of that; I am quite certain that it will benefit the teachers very considerably.

2197. I suppose that you think that if this Bill became law, it might encourage the parents and the factories to adopt it, and thereby give the schools an opportunity of working in conformity with the new arrangement ?—Yes.

2198. Did it ever occur to you what the effect would be if this Bill included four periods of 30 minutes, instead of four of 20 minutes?I think that that would be a little too much for the month of May, and for the month of August. It would be very well for June and July, I think. For those two months it would be better still.

2199. The lift would be too much, you think. Now you say that the heat of the schoolroom is sometimes 80 degrees ?-Between 70 and 80.

2200. That is a terrible state for children to work in ?-It is very bad, indeed.

2201. What would be the cause of that? Is

2185. In a summer evening there is enough out-door daylight left for them, is there not? They can play from four till half-past eight or eight o'clock, and that is about as much as they can do, is it not?-There is a certain amount of time to come out of that for work.

2186. Preparation ?-No, I do not mean preparation, but their home-work.

2187. You said that they would get extra hours which they could spend outside, instead of in bed ?-Yes.

2188. You contemplate that the children would go to bed, not at the same nominal time, but at the same time in relation to the sun ?—I think that they would have less time in bed.

M

slate roof?—Yes.

2202. One single roof?-Yes, one roof. All the windows face south. The school is lighted entirely from the south side.

2203. Is the structure built purposely for a school ?-Yes, but it is nearly 50 years old.

2204. You believe that children work better if they have recreation at mid-day-in the middle of the lessons, as it were ?-Undoubtedly they do. The effect can always be felt if the recreation, from some cause or other, is stopped. I refer to the quarter of an hour's recreation. Even the quarter of an hour tells.

2205. I suppose that you probably would agree that if children got up earlier they would want to go to bed earlier ?—Yes.

16*

2206. There

Mr. Richards-continued. 2206. There are no frauds among children? They act very naturally?-Sometimes.

2207. I am speaking of the bulk of them. When they are tired, they generally want to go to sleep. There is not much attempt to sit up and watch the clock?-No. I think that they would rather go to sleep when they felt sleepy. 2208. I daresay that you have had experience of their falling asleep in school sometimes?-In the infants' department.

Chairman.

2209. Do you think that the effect of this Bill would be in any appreciable degree to lessen the number of hours of sleep enjoyed by children? You just said, in reply to Mr. Holt, that you thought that they would have less opportunities of sleep, or remaining in bed?—Yes. I think

Witness.

Chairman-continued.

[Continued.

that it would slightly. I think that children from 10 years of age would spend less time in their bedrooms.

2210. They would spend less time in their bedrooms, but they would not necessarily have less sleep?-No.

2211. So that, on a general consideration of all the aspects of the Bill, you think, from the point of view of school life and the 7,000,000 children in elementary schools in the Kingdom, that the benefits of the Bill would be unquestionably great?-I do.

2212. You have no objections to offer as regards the plan proposed to effect the end of the Bill?No, I can see none.

(The Witness withdrew.)

2213. I have now, Sir Edward, to ask you to be kind enough to take notice of a few statements which I have here by gentlemen who will come as witnesses if you wish them to. I submit that it would save the time of the Committee if I were to read what they have to say, or, at any rate, the salient points of their statements?

Chairman.

2214. Certainly?-The first statement is by Mr. Howard Williams, son of the late Sir George Williams, the founder of the Young Men's Christian Association, and a partner in the firm of Hitchcock, Williams and Company, St. Paul's Churchyard. He is president of a dozen athletic, football, cricket and rowing clubs, and Chairman of the British and Colonial Union of the Young Men's Christian Association. He says: "My firm employs upwards of a thousand assistants. A considerable amount of work, particularly in the warehouses, has to be done by artificial light as evening approaches. I have ascertained the amount of artificial light consumed during the summer months, and I find by calculation that if the working hours had been adjusted last year, as is proposed by this Bill, my firm would have saved in the period during which the altered hours would have been in operation a sum of £347. In addition to this there has to be taken into account the saving of the eyesight of a great portion of my staff, who have on dull days to work by the aid of artificial light. While such artificial light we use is electricity, I can speak from personal knowledge that in the case of many warehouses the staff has to work by the aid of gas and other illuminants, which have a very bad effect upon the atmosphere, and from the point of view of health, therefore, the change in the hours would in their case be most desirable, and tend to the improvement of their health. The Young Men's Christian Association, of which I am the Chairman of the British and Colonial Union, has a membership of over 700,000, scattered over numerous districts at home and abroad. The additional hours which would be at the disposal of these young men in

Chairman-continued.

the Association in Great Britain for the purpose of outdoor recreation would be very much appreciated by them, especially in connection with the numerous clubs which are run in connection with the various branches of the Association. Any arrangement that will bring more light and sunshine into young lives must be beneficial.” I think that that might be put on the minutes, if you will allow it. The next statement which I have to put before you is from the Musical Adviser of the London County Council, Mr. Carl Armbruster, of No. 155, Holland Road, W. I have been to a lot of trouble to get these statements. I want to save the time of the Committee.

2215. It is perfectly legitimate to read them ?-Mr. Armbruster says: "The London County Council engages about 90 bands each season to give performances in the various parks and open spaces of London. The number of these performances is between 1,200 and 1,300, and they are given upon about 60 bandstands. The bands play for three hours at each evening performance. starting at the commencement of the season, namely, in the middle of May, at five o'clock, and finishing at eight. These times gradually lengthen out week by week, until by midsummer day the bands commence at 5.45 and continue until 8.45. The hours are, of course, regulated by the available daylight, as only upon half a dozen stands is it possible to have artificial light. After midsummer the time of commencing and finishing the performances gets earlier week by week, until the end of the season. Towards the latter end of August the performances commence at 4.15 and finish at 7.15. Many of the Many of the performances, especially those at the beginning and end of the season, are to a very great extent wasted, because for the reason above stated they have to take place at such an early hour of the evening, and, in fact, at some of the performances the audience consists mainly of women, children and cripples, the time of the band playing being such as to make it impossible for the working-men to get to the bandstands. The Council spends £12,000 per annum on its band performances, which are pre

sented